Moving up to Deity - SO CLOSE TO WINNING but .... WTH is up with Rock Bands?

[Archaelicos]

So, I've been playing on Emperor and I'm about a 50/50 win at that difficulty. After reading a lot here, I concluded that I just need to move up to Deity and start learning how to play that game.

I rolled Kupe on archipelago, thinking it would ease the difficulty a little. It did at first but I think it cost me in the end. Long story short, I landed on a BIG island with Cleopatra and Monty. Cleo was more antagonistic so I befriended Monty by selling him lots of luxuries and went to war with Cleo. I cleaned her out, but it took until about turn 170. I switched to build mode and had to deal with South Korea. I was 2nd to last in science when I beat Cleo, and then went full-on science and culture, not being sure what win condition I wanted at the time.

It took me about 30 turns to catch up on science - much faster than I expected, and with the Maori's natural cultural advantages, I beelined for flight and went for the tourism victory. I quickly subdued everybody except Kristina, who had like 5 cities. I heisted all of her great works but she was still keeping up on tourists. I would close the gap to 30-40 and she'd open it back up.

So I unleashed a fury of 16 rock bands on her from the 10,000+ faith I'd been saving for such a purpose. FIFTEEN of them did one concert and broke up. The sixteenth did a second concert and broke up. They BARELY made a dent.

By he time I realized I needed to take her out, I had neglected my military too much, and the global warming impacts are so extreme I had lost a load of coast. Seriously - in the REAL WORLD WE LIVE IN we are not seeing 3 meters of sea level rise over the course of like 50 years, I think the global warming mechanic is a little aggressive.

Anyway, nobody would trade with me so I was maxed out on works and theming and I just had to ride it out, I couldn't think of anything else to do except maybe declare war and try to pillage her museums. Except she had like 4 allies including Monty so if I did that he'd invade me. Anyway, I got her to within 9 turns of a win, and then OUT OF NOWHERE, Saladin jumped FIFTY tourists ahead and my time to win skyrocketed to 200+ turns. I just shut it off at that point. I don't understand the tourism mechanic well enough to win that way.

Mostly I'm very frustrated with how pointless and ineffective rock bands are. For what it's worth, Monty built 2 bands and they literally toured my civilization for a CENTURY. I built 16, they were one hit wonders. Is it the difficulty level? I was able to sustain some bands at Emperor, though they also had virtually no impact.

To be clear. Kristina had 5 cities and NO great works. I had 15 cities, and 9 themed museums, Sydney Opera house loaded, music slots loaded, malls everywhere, and was running every tourism civic there is. With all of that and dumping 16 rock bands on her, I STILL could barely keep up with Kristina. What is Sweden's magic formula for tourism!?

 

[Midgardsormr]

The Rock Bands seem to have a higher-than-normal randomness to them. I've experienced the same as you in some games: I build a dozen of them and none last more than a couple of concerts. In other games, I build two, and they last forever, essentially winning the game by themselves. I don't think they're any more likely to fail in Deity than on other difficulties, though.

Sweden can be a real pain when you're going for CV. If you have a runaway cultural opponent, do everything you can to maximize your Tourism against that state: Match their government, get a trade route, and keep the borders open. Sometimes, unfortunately, that will mean dropping back to Theocracy in the Modern Era.

Saladin's sudden jump in tourists was probably due to launching the Moon Landing. It creates a massive amount of culture all at once. The good news is that it's a one-time bonus. Gotta keep an eye on those Spaceports.

 

[kb27787]

Saladin landed on the moon so he received ten turns worth of science as culture.

Your problem probably was killing people in general (you need them as tourists and you'll lose all the tourists you got from them if they die) rock bands are more powerful in smaller number civ maps and much weaker in huge ones. Passive pressure is best in large maps.

Still, do not trust the turn timer on the VC screen.. It is not properly calculating. If you would post your save I can probably comment more.

 

[Socrates99]

Just curious, we're you stockpiling that faith until you unlocked rock bands or were you waiting to unleash a flurry of them for a reason?

 

[ravenmagus]

Rockbands come with a promotion. Select a promotion that gives them an extra 2 levels when playing at a tile type (like wonders, entertainment districts, etc) - then play at only those places. They still have the chance to die but it is greatly reduced with their higher levels. Once you get some more promotions you can select more tiles with bonus levels to really get them rolling.

 

[Victoria]

They BARELY made a dent.

This is because it seems you were too late to the game. As a guess based on what I have to go on Kristina was probably at about 300-400 culture per turn. If you see it that high you only have one bloody choice really. It is Kristinas open air museums that really help... that and the AI likes to put great works in wonders where you cannot steal them. Kristina also has a unique government building to store them safely and her auto theming does not help.

Mostly I'm very frustrated with how pointless and ineffective rock bands are.

People are posting in all forums how OP rock bands are, sure some may be about loyalty or gold but an early rock band at T120-130 will do huge damage, one at T300 will do little. It is about when you use them. The defence against your tourism is a high culture output and that is what Korea will be having as well as inspirations and late game inspirations deginately counter rock bands. A moon landing will give the AI +10-30 domestic tourism... a late inspiration gives about 6-8. Amd you can get a few of them

The Rock Bands seem to have a higher-than-normal randomness to them.

No more than the rest of the game. They run by the same rules and call the same function as other things, the real issue is a windows RNG has a higher than normal randomness... or what you may call a higher than normal clustering of values. Sometimes good, sometimes bad. You can check this in the log file rand_calls.csv the rocks band calls are clearly marked.

Select a promotion that gives them an extra 2 levels when playing at a tile type

not many give this, I found just playing wonders is as effective, even when your band breaks up it makes 2000 tourism, more than what you make in a turn. The issue here is the OP was too late.

@kb27787 Tourism scales with the number of civs in play so from a pure single value point of view there is no difference on map size. However, the larger maps are more likely to have more culture CS you have no access to but another civ does, more chance of a nasty culture civ like Greece and on smaller maps you influence (by being closer) a larger % of civs. So more about the game in general than the CV but regardless you are correct, smaller maps you have better influence in.

 

[Midgardsormr]

No more than the rest of the game. They run by the same rules and call the same function as other things,

It's probably a matter of a low number of samples. I haven't used Rock Bands very much, so the clustering is more prominent in my mind. Also, the very rapid decline in loss rate as they level up make successes feel bigger.

 

[Socrates99]

It's probably a matter of a low number of samples. I haven't used Rock Bands very much, so the clustering is more prominent in my mind. Also, the very rapid decline in loss rate as they level up make successes feel bigger.

I actually like that. Kinda mirrors RL. Some fizzle out quick like a one hit wonder, some last decades like ACDC, the Stones or Lynyrd Skynyrd. Half of Skynyrd's original members are dead and they still sell out stadiums. On the other hand you have bands like Filter, 7Mary3, etc. that had one hit and fizzled out.

 

[kb27787]

This is because it seems you were too late to the game. As a guess based on what I have to go on Kristina was probably at about 300-400 culture per turn. If you see it that high you only have one bloody choice really. It is Kristinas open air museums that really help... that and the AI likes to put great works in wonders where you cannot steal them. Kristina also has a unique government building to store them safely and her auto theming does not help.

People are posting in all forums how OP rock bands are, sure some may be about loyalty or gold but an early rock band at T120-130 will do huge damage, one at T300 will do little. It is about when you use them. The defence against your tourism is a high culture output and that is what Korea will be having as well as inspirations and late game inspirations deginately counter rock bands. A moon landing will give the AI +10-30 domestic tourism... a late inspiration gives about 6-8. Amd you can get a few of them

No more than the rest of the game. They run by the same rules and call the same function as other things, the real issue is a windows RNG has a higher than normal randomness... or what you may call a higher than normal clustering of values. Sometimes good, sometimes bad. You can check this in the log file rand_calls.csv the rocks band calls are clearly marked.
not many give this, I found just playing wonders is as effective, even when your band breaks up it makes 2000 tourism, more than what you make in a turn. The issue here is the OP was too late.

@kb27787 Tourism scales with the number of civs in play so from a pure single value point of view there is no difference on map size. However, the larger maps are more likely to have more culture CS you have no access to but another civ does, more chance of a nasty culture civ like Greece and on smaller maps you influence (by being closer) a larger % of civs. So more about the game in general than the CV but regardless you are correct, smaller maps you have better influence in.

Well, yes there is the point of CS too I suppose...

What I'm saying is that with more civs, wonders tend to be more dispersed, as do the culture output (no clear culture runaway but 2-3 culture leaders instead). It's easier to catch a culture runaway if they are the only one with 10 wonders... your rock bands never run out of space to play in. I have a tough time when facing huge culture output from UI civs (Maori, France, Persia) who don't necessarily have more than 2-3 wonders. So even if you manage a high level album cover art band they run out of places to play at the target civ (whereas if the civ has lots of wonders a single such band can single-handedly remove ~40+ tourists for you in a handful of turns)

 

[Victoria]

Well, yes there is the point of CS too I suppose...

What I'm saying is that with more civs, wonders tend to be more dispersed, as do the culture output (no clear culture runaway but 2-3 culture leaders instead). It's easier to catch a culture runaway if they are the only one with 10 wonders... your rock bands never run out of space to play in. I have a tough time when facing huge culture output from UI civs (Maori, France, Persia) who don't necessarily have more than 2-3 wonders. So even if you manage a high level album cover art band they run out of places to play at the target civ (whereas if the civ has lots of wonders a single such band can single-handedly remove ~40+ tourists for you in a handful of turns)

Good point.
When I played a rock band only Game the target only had 2 wonders. I just threw all my bands against them unless they had a +2 promo amd it worked fine. Once you have a touring band promoted you should have the up to 11 promo and that way play next doors wonders.