MrB4...Beyond the PC Problems

[Mr. Blonde]

So... with Beyond the Sword out and batteryacid finally purchasing a PC that meets the minimum requirements AND runs the game we can start our next succession game.

Players:
Mr. Blonde
batteryacid
Belisar

Status: planning

So things that are clear: BtS; Prince level. All victory conditions on. My suggestion is to limit tech brokering as option, random events are also for discussion. My suggestion: Ancient start/epic speed so we have more time to move armies and fleets.

Map: I suggest you take a look at Hemispheres/2 continents (varied) islands - makes Earth like maps, very interesting layouts. One drawback is that financial civs could catch a semi-isolated start (on the smaller rugged continent or on one of the bigger islands). Other option is big_and_small with the same parameters.

Leader: well now the really important question. We want a flexible civ which supports an opportunistic gameplay with warmongering in between. Traits we don´t want because they are too dominant on the gameplay: aggressive, protective, industrious. Spiritual could be very interesting to play as well as philosophical. I am not too familiar with both, but SG are to learn and let lurk, I would say.
Anyways, "top" traits from our pov: Fin, Cre, Org, Cha, Imp (Exp). Expansive...well my impression is that health is more problematic in BtS, fast workers are a good asset, but in comparison... I am not sure.

My suggestion is to combine an economic trait like Fin, Org, Phi with a militaristic trait like Cha and Imp. Personally a combination of 2 economic traits is either OP (see Darius with Fin/Org) or they work against each other ( Elisabeth with Fin/Phi). My experiences with Frederick (Phi,Org) don´t help either - he just has nothing to expand early. Cre (or Spi) I can imagine combining with all of them.

So my "top" list: Hannibal (Fin/Cha); Julius (Org/Imp); Lincoln (Phi/Cha); Napoleon (Org/Cha); Suleiman (Phi/Imp); Victoria (Fin/Imp); Willem (Cre/Fin); Zara Jacob (Cre/Org); Pericles (Phi/Cre); Catherine (Cre/Imp).

If we decide to play Spi we have to make a bigger list. I really don´t have preferences, I think Pericles is maybe too cultural for our taste. Org and Fin are obviously easier to play than Phi; Imp and Cha are imo equally suiting our opportunistic warfare playstyle (imp has a faster early expansion).


If lurkers feel free to give us their experience on suggested leaders, they are welcome to comment.

 

[batteryacid]

My vote: ancient start is a must , epic speed also - I also vote for random events. Map size ? Something like 7 Enemies would be best , I guess. I am usually for a medium aggressive playing style. I must admit I have lot to learn concerning economy and empire building in Civ4, but it differs not tooo dramatically from civ3, with a bit more corruption and a bit more flexibility through the Civic options.

 

[Belisar]

Hi comrades, followers through the dark ages and brothers in arms...
Let's lead our empire in the unknown but glory future

I will post my comments on the game settings tonight,
For now, my number 1 priority is that we discuss our variant/game, then we all play a start, lets say 30,40 turns and then we decide which we will take.

 

[Belisar]

So here are my suggestions for game settings.

Start/landmass:
While I wouldn't object to a higher difficult level, Prince is ok for the first BTS SG.
Continents (earth-like, for experimenting with colonies/vassals) on a standard map-size,
ancient start and epic as suggested are also very ok with me.
For the first SG, I tend to veto random events.

I think we want to experiment a bit, so no strict variant like always war or (nearly) always peace.
Oszillating war is the key word. We establish ourselves, expand a bit by taking 1-2 good sites from the
nearest neighbour, then we go on with a builder phase, ready for the first big war...
Our wars should be prepared, short and crushing, this means we will stay at peace ~3/4 of the game.


Traits/Leader:
Traits I consider very strong:
Financial
Philosophical
Imperalistic

Traits I think are worth considering:
Expansive
Organized
Spiritual
Charismatic
Industrious

Traits I would like to avoid in this game:
Agressive (Charismatic is more flexible with additional happiness)
Creative (2 culture is not enough)
Protective (only for a very defensive game plan)

MrB's suggestion (1 militarisic and 1 economic trait) is good, in this case I would prefer
Imperialistic combined with Philosophical or Financial.

So this leaves
Ottoman: Suleiman - Imperialistic & Philosophical
England: Victoria - Financial & Imperialistic
as my top-choices.

 

[Mr. Blonde]

Thanks for your comment, Belisar. As you know batetryacid is a kind of rookie, so we don´t want to overwhelm him. Prince is s good compromise.

I would suggest you have a look at Big_and_small and Hemispheres maps with the parameters 2 continents (varied or standard) and islands (You know-start custom game, enter worldbuilder, regenerate maps a couple of time), they are imo more reliable to deliver OK maps without isolation as opposed to custom continents.

Hmm... so you prefer imperialistic. Militaristic I think it is as good as Cha when operating with specialised cities + fast early expansion.

Ottomans have as I recall a strong UB (Hamam) which gives health + happiness that comes instead of the aqueduct. I consider philosophical with a specialist economy more interesting but harder to play than Fin, but maybe a better option for an expanding / production focused empire.
Might be interesting for a SG where we have time to discuss and optimise citylayouts, ect. I think I prefer Suleiman for our SG.

I knew you´d object random events

So, this weekend we could meet, discuss and fix the parameters and finally start this Sunday.

 

[batteryacid]

"Kind of Rookie " tztz


What I lack is the fine tuning and the feeling"for when to change civics or going first on militaristic (bronze, iron ) or more city tile improvement/religion sciences, depends I guess strongly on sourrounding tiles and food resources near the capita

What I definitely like in Civ3 more than in civ4 is the new war/culture defense/Artillery concept and the better interface; I think war wagering is now more intuitive and diversified than in civ3 with its monotonous cav and tank stacks wars.

I am really looking forward to this BTS game and I will want a really detailed and reason based discussion about all steps (not: "we will want this science and not that because that would be stupid now" but more detailed reasoning like: "our worker comes in x turns so we can now slide in iron instead of animal husbandry which will be next" etc.)

@ belisar: is your avatar a selfmade ?

 

[Belisar]

I'm fine with Ottos, their aqueduct comes early and is therefore more helpful than the English Stock Exchange.
Whith this trait combo, we will get a lot of great people, a nice Civ4 feeling and a lot of things to discuss,
while the financial approach with it's cottage spam is more straightforward and we can do that on a higher
difficult level in the next SG.

I'm all for a relaxed pace with lots of discussion between turns, even during turns if something turns up
that influences our game plan.
For example, if we plan a war the player that starts planing it will likely not start it, so teamwork is key.
And no problem, acid, for the lack of fine-tuning, I'm still experimenting with BTS too.
What I want to avoid is that someone plays a lot of turns in a rush while we could do much better
by discussion (and therefore minmizing problems by anticipation) and concentration (and get rid of this "..I forgot..")

besides, the avatar is a modified (coloured) version from www.my-smileys.de, a site where I will take the real
bad-looking smileys from if somebody makes moves,

 

[Mr. Blonde]

Hi, I am back again with suggestions for the mapscript. I have examples of several scripts based on Hemispheres with 2 continents + normal islands below:

Above: Normal continents. Below left: Massive continents right: varied continents.
As you see, either 3-3-1 or 4-2-1 splits, we can restart if we are unlucky to be the isolated one, I also had maps without isolated start. Domination can be tricky if we land on the smaller continent. With tech brokering off and the new techspeesd we won´t be behind the big continent the moment we make contact (my experience at noble).
Imo this script features continents with the right amount of islands so they are not useless + we can try perhaps to create a colony, maybe? Continents and Big_and_Small don´t let us control the amount of continents so imo they are not as good and custom_continents look unnatural and ugly in comaprison.

Well, lwe will see lots of great people, but isn´t the saying mediocre leaders sourround themselves with bad people but good leaders sourround themselves with GP


OK: When we agree on the mapscript (and I encourage you to have a look yourself) we can start this sunday.

 

[batteryacid]

IMO both right examples look great. Is it in BTS a problem to start on an isolated island? I don´t think so, because the tech brokering (at epic) should not be a problem as it should be possible to make contact with others before tech brokering is possible or before others are too far ahead.

I would definitely prefere a map like above right, as I don´t like too big continents without at least some natural barriers like big lakes or peninsularic /subcontinental structure

 

[Belisar]

Personally, I'm fine with most of the maps.
Everything is ok as long as we are not the only one on a tiny island, in which
case I would consider a restart.

MrB's idea of starting the game together saturday is great.
Looking forward to this one.

 

[Mr. Blonde]

The first start we saw was surrounded by desert and tundra tiles… challenging but not so funny. Our second roll gives a decent location with plenty of food and ivory as early lux.

Round 0: We decide to move 1 to the west with our settler to include more landtiles + give a potential city in the east more space.
Round 1: We settle on the designated place, with 2 clam we decide to go for fishing first. Our warrior reveals that our continent ends in the east, with 1 good location for a future city.
Round 7: Our exploring warrior “convinces” the tribal village to donate merely 28 cash to our cause.
Round 8: Our warrior defends against a wolf and meets the whimpy looking leader of the Indians, Ghandi, hiding behind a strange device made of transparent material, unknown by our scientists.
Round 9: another wolf tries to overwhelm our warrior but loses decisively
Round 10: Our people know now how to make use of the animals lurking below the surface of the water. Now it is time they learn how to dig in the dirt.
Round 12: The second warrior is done and now it´s time to make use of the clam.
Round 13: The goody huts are good in name only… 3 hostile warriors spam with a bear approaching in prospect of some human meat.
Round 14: Our warrior loses to the bear! Bad luck indeed. Hopefully the warriors turn east to Ghandi
Round 16: Hinduism is found in some unknown land
Round 21: Mining is in, Bronze working to go. Our lone warrior explores in the meantime. There seem to be two connections through isthmuses in the south.
Round 29: our people go fishing now. After reassigning tiles a warrior will be built in 8 rounds, Istanbul grows in 5.
Round 34: Istanbul grows, after finetuning the warrior comes 1 turn earlier
Round 39: Bronzeworking comes in but proves to be useless…hopefully Animal Husbandry reveals something we can put to use in the battlefield. I take screenshots and post them

Task for every player: make a dotmap for the next 3-4 city locations (with specialisation in mind). After reaching consensus, we continue playing, 20 turns at the moment.

Roster: Mr. Blonde on
Belisar next
Batteryacid

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/49010/MrB4_39.CivBeyondSwordSave

 

[Belisar]

This is how I normally make a dotmap.
First I mark usless tiles (red cross). We don't want deserts and mountains,
these tiles must be minmized.
Then I mark the top-sites I want to grab like the Great Person City (city II),
then the rest of the future cities.
Blue circles is overlap, trying to minmize but some is inevitable

capital: A mix of high food and production
I: A good production center (ivory, 5 hills, rice and farms to support all the mines)
II: Our Great Person City (5 floodplains, 1 corn - cann't be seen in the screeny, 1 cattle) farms, farms and more farms!
III: A nice commerce center (floodplains, seafood, Ivory, river, gras)
IV: Medium site to fill the southwest landbridge, with rice and cattle
V: Commerce/specialist site

South of the capital seems to be a lot of jungle and hopefully new ressources we can grab
with some more cities in the mid-run when we are employing a worker force.
Note that horses and iron may force us to change this map accordingly.

 

[Mr. Blonde]

My thoughts on the dotmap:

As philosophical civ we should aim for a GP farm, obviously. The spotted location is rather far away, but we should grab it with our 2nd founding, imo as Ghandi lurks somewhere there. That leaves a spot for no.1 with little overlap and the potential for a good commercial/hybrid city. Number 3 is at the moment designated as productive port. I am aware that some grasslands are unused between 3 and the other cities, but I think we can pack them loosely as we are not organised or financial.
So: Our capital, 1 and 3 have no clear characteristics yet but can all be developed in the direction we want. I would aim for our cap and 3 (with workshops) to be productive.
1 is a good location for cottages with all the rivertiles, but can switch to production with 4 hills + rice and a couple of irrigated tiles. 4 needs granaries + slavery to start it up.
As option we could move 3 one tile east and lose the port + still have clam inside, but I think we might need it as port for wonders.

Edit: I saw we think the same way, Belisar. Seems there is nothing to discuss. I did not include the location in the SW, though. You would switch the roles of 1 and 3. Maybe our cap as productive port is enough.

 

[batteryacid]

So, finished my dotmap.
Here it is

I have a bit overlap, especially with city 1 but I think this should not be a problem, especially as this overlap gives us flexibility and synergies in tile improvement

I was undecided to put 4 on the coast or inland, on the coast would cost us inland tiles (we will have to look were horses or iron will pop anyway for this decision, I hope we can avoid making a "desert city" to grab iron); 2, 3 and 4 were really no brainers.

Prefered sequence: 1,2 4, 3, 5 or 12345, 1 and 2 should be the next to make a little barrier against Ghandi

I think -as I look at the other dotmaps- that we all came to the same conclusion and that city placement is rather clear for now.

Damn how do I get the picture smaller? I changed size and type in ppt but it didn´t seem to work

 

[Belisar]

I did not include the location in the SW, though. You would switch the roles of 1 and 3.

@MrB:
I did not do the math but my feeling is that pre-workshops your red 1 will be our 2nd production center (together with the capital) and your blue 3 is a good commerce site. The additional production from the ivory-plains and the lonly hill will help getting the needed infra in place and maybe we need a few ships mid-term. The few wasted tiles between blue-3 and the capital don't bother me, ressources can also be hooked up when not in the 21-tiles of a city as long as they are in the culture radius.

The capital can also use some plain-cottages if it reaches happy or health limit for additional income. It is a typical hybrid city and gives us flexibility.

@acid:
I really think that the western city has to be coastal due to reasons provided above. Otherwise fine with me.
About the picture-size: I use publisher to scale them before I upload them.

Okay, lets go on with MrB and 15-20 turns, accordingly to decisions that may come up

 

[Mr. Blonde]

I will play today or tomorrow when I am in the mood. So strategy: settle no.1, then go fishing boat -> settler with cap; build 1-2 warriors for further exploration and then worker in city 1. Research: AH needs a few rounds; them either writing or IW depending if we are still in a hurry to find a military resource.
If there are objections/suggestions please post, otherwise I will play as posted.

I can not play Tue, Wed and Thu. Batt has afaik some leisure time during the week. So I guess it depends on you, Belisar to decide if you play before or after batt. My next window is either Sat or sun.

 

[Belisar]

Suggested moves sound good, it would be nice to get the worker out quickly, helping with one or 2 chops for the next settler and improving the pigs and the ivory afterwards.

I can most certainly play Thuesday night, so take all the time you need tomorrow.

 

[Mr. Blonde]

So, after a couple of coffees I feel sharp enough to perform the task of playing probably uneventful turns.
So, indeed nothing happens until turn 53. The settler is here and I start the second workboat. I do not change the tile adjustment as the city will grow to 4 the round the boat is there. In turn 54 AH comes in and reveals horses within the borders of city spot 3. So we don´t have to move its location east. I start writing as we will need libraries soon as our locations need the second ring to shine. Chariots should be OK for the moment to defend against Barbs in this phase. In turn 55 a barbarian warrior attacks our warrior guarding the location of the second city but loses. Turn 55: Edrine is founded and starts a warrior, I guess after it grows it can start our first worker. Turn 58: a forest grows within Istanbul. Turn 64: Istanbul finishes the workboat and I start a settler which will come in 14 turns, probably less when the second clam is hooked. A worker would take 12 turns, but I think the GP farm is important enough to build the settler first. Edrine should build 2 warriors, imo as I see one Barb warrior approaching it + we need a defender for the GP farm.
Istanbul: hook the clam, adjust the tiles new and build after the settler 1-2 worker and 1 warrior before the settler for spot no.3 with the horses comes.
Edrine: warrior-warrior-worker (imo). Research: Writing->IW

I am aware that I played more than 20 turns, but nothing than the Barb warrior attack and the settler movement happened.
So: Belisar is on, and I would like to hear your opinion on my suggestions.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/49010/MrB4_64.CivBeyondSwordSave

 

[Belisar]

Good to hear that we have horses at least, that makes getting the first 4 cities in place the top priority for now. Withouth copper we should get to horse archers quickly ase they are really nice against the barb-axes.
According to our dotmap the first cities are all on the river, nice for the connection but horses need to be linked up quickly so I totally agree on getting the workers out fast. With all the food the capital can do that while we get some culture for Edrine (it needs the expansion because all it's goodies are 2nd ring. Building a worker there is too slow)

 

[batteryacid]

@ belisar

I read in another thread a short comment about the double settler speed concerning our trait and it sounded as if only the hammers double when building a settler, it may also be possible I misunderstood the text as it was a bit ambiguous - if correct we will have to adapt micromanagement and building / improvement order for the next settlers