MrB4...Beyond the PC Problems

[Mr. Blonde]

Thoughts on the tech: Math would be a good choice, how long does it take? I suspect a considerable amount of turns.
I suggested Masonry cause we need it anyway and it is cheap.
The CoL religion should be ours anyway. I'm surprised that Gandhi didn't get one of the early ones, he must be very weak.

Look at his thin arms. He is definitely weak. So Masonry-> math and then decide if we need Constr., Col or Curr. Alph is not needed before the tech that follows math, imo.

PS.: Any plans this weekend?

 

[batteryacid]

Math sounds good to me, then Alphabet for the spies and then we go for Belisars beloved War elephants. Until then we should have our 5-6 cities running on max pop and tiles should be improved enough to support military production parallel to enough commerce working tiles to stay ahead Ghandi in tech. CoL Religion is another question, but I don´t have any idea if it is a reasonable enough assumption that we can found Conficionism, but we will need some religion sooner or later to get our max pop up.

So I would say for now, tech strat is clear, CoL decision will be necessary for Belisars or my next turns; when we hit max pop before we have our religion, we can slip in next 2 settlers for the south/western city places.

 

[Mr. Blonde]

Situation: The Iron city site is decided now. I think I go for mathematics first and then for masonry. Pursuing the pyramids would be the only reason to do different, mathematics leaves us with more options. Masonry if we need hamams, CoL if we go for a religion, HBR/Con if we want very early “PHANTS”. Imo the most reasonable move would be alphabet before war for spies and to milk the cow (concerning tech) before the slaughter.
I check and Judaism was founded 1450 BC. Please, check the turnlogs for important information like this. I decide to go for mathematics which will come in 23 turns. I leave the defending warrior for the Iron city unpromoted for the moment.
1 worker is set to mine the plains hill near Edrine as first step to get the military city started. A faster Lib doesn´t hurt, either.

Turn 112: our cap builds the chariot. Hmm… I think it will be our second mil city. It is growing decently, health is 8 at the moment which will be the limit it reaches with the Hamam. I think Barracks may be of importance more early, so I build them 1 Chariot should be enough at the moment for Barbs. And the other thing is that Istanbul can grow to 6 and produce more commerce then. Ankara builds a monument after the workboat.
Turn 114: I refuse an open border agreement and found Konya, the Iron city in the place we wanted. I send 1 worker to Konya for the cows as it really needs some hammers for the monument
Turn 116: The great wall is built somewhere. I have to lower the sci rate to 50%. Soon some more commerce should be here get it going again.
Turn 119: Ghandi adopts slavery which means he has got BW. The sci rate is now at 60% with -2 gpt
Turn 120: Edrine starts Barracks after a Lib, very soon it can work the rice, so a granary is not important, imo. Ankara begins a Lib.
Turn 124: I check our opponent and he has a 2nd city. Some worker movement + tile adjustment, nothing exciting. He has a workboat for exploration around.
Turn 125: Istanbul starts a worker now.
Turn 127: Bursa builds a warrior and starts a monument. I send the warrior to see where ghandi´s 2nd city is placed.
Turn 128: A Barb warrior appears and I send the Chariot to intercept. Edrine expands and I start the irrigation of the rice.
Turn 129: We win and I decide to send the chariot to Ghandi.
Turn 132: Istanbul goes worker->worker; I would build a lib afterwards. With rice and wheat online soon we can think of chopping the lib there. Istanbul is a very versatile city that could run commerce, production and a couple of specialists once the lib is there.
Turn 133: Konya goes monument->workboat (will be here the turn the border expands) Our GP farm needs this last worker from Istanbul.
Turn 134: Mathematics is in!
Masonry would need 5 turns; CoL needs either Meditation/Priesthhod (both 6) or Currency (32). Alphabet is 24 turns, Sailing (lighthouse) 8 turns and Currency is 32 turns. So if we go for CoL we are actually fastest if we research Med/Pr ourselves compared to going for currency or alphabet and hoping there is something to trade. I think Masonry + build to Hammams to speed things up and then beeline to CoL (we can decide what route, because Currency would be very sweet in our situation; we need Med/Pr to work the religion, though) is the thing to go. Another point is the question to switch to slavery? At the moment not necessary, imo but later on when all those foodtiles are worked and we need hammams or forges later on?

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/49010/MrB4_134.CivBeyondSwordSave

 

[Belisar]

Thanks UMTS I'm online
Seems like good progress by MrB. We now have to pause expansion and go full speed infra/economy.
As during most games happines seems to be the problem.
The helath issues will be gone for a while when we have linked up all those nice goodies
(rice, wheat... we have pleanty) It's a good thing our aqua gives also 2 happy faces.
I think MrB is right, we should push CoL (for the religion AND the maintainance costs)
Because we need city raider swords as well, cunstruction can wait a bit (we just build the swords
and afterwards the phants)
A small note: try to preserve as much forests in the fat cross as we can (the two that were marked
at Istanbul for example, a full health point) Health is hard to get later on when there are many possibilities
for happiness (culture slider for example)

Can we go on with batter? (I'm heading for Stu.)

 

[batteryacid]

I agree, go for Hammams, they seem to be rather powerful at the moment; let our cities grow to happy max and get our eco running. The only problem I see at the moment is that we don´t have an Uber-PRoduction city as all cities have only 3 or less hills and its long time until we can build levees.

 

[Mr. Blonde]

So...can you take the save and play, batt? Worker movements + city improvement is the only issue for now. Teching is Masonry and the go meditation-> priesthood -> CoL

 

[batteryacid]

Turnlog:
137: Chariot vs. Barb -> win
139: Ghandi wants open borders which I refuse
Masonry !, I switch IStanbul, Edrine and Ankara to Hammams as they hit happyness at the moment
142, 144, Barbs in the east and Northeast all defended
147: Jean d´arc is born somewhere, another barb! Thank god we have our sweet chariot!
151: PRiesthood is discovered , Hammam in Istanbul built-> I go for max growth and slip in one swordman until max pop is reached
152: another barb, Ghandi sends us a warrior to sneak around between our cites
154: Hammam in Ankara, I build a second chariot to cover the North west
158: Barb
163: Kill a barb (Bowman!) in the north and win 94€ , switch research from 50 to 60 % (-4) eco still not running smooth
172: We are the founders of Confucianism, Ankara is our holy city! Istanbul builds settler, two chariots which should check the east of the continent are attacked by a barb Bowman

So for discussion: With the settler: so we found "Miami" or "LA" according to our dotmap?
Cities: Ankara should begin to spread our religion as we will need it to improve our happyness. The two northern cities are building Bibl. at the moment, Ankara and Bursa will need Courthouses next, but we should begin stockpiling some axes and chariots, we have 3 chariots, 6 warriors and 2 swords at the moment. Tile improvement is ok for the moment, 3 core cities and our GPF are good improved, Iron city needs most improvement; Farms and cottages (or workshops?) are to spread on remaining tiles.

Overall Picture: IStanbul 8! Ankara 7, Edrine: 5 (cannot grow as fast as other cities), Bursa 6! Konya 5
Ghandi possesses 1/2 of our score , so I guess he has ~3 Cities at the moment and no milita, so next issue will be conquering him as soon as we have our elephants and some axes.

Tech: To decide. I preswitched to sailing, which is not yet necessary as all of our cities have enough good land tiles to work with,and only bonus sea tiles are worked at the moment, but exploring our coast and next islands, especially Ghandi´s part of our continent woud be nice.
My vote: Metal casting (for Forges in Ist/Endrine/Konya) then Constr (15 turns) for war elephands and catapults and then Alphabet (13 turns), we need 1-2 spies when we go to war to have an owerview of Ghandis milita and incoming reinforcements

Here´s the save

 

[Belisar]

172: We are the founders of Confucianism, Ankara is our holy city!

Very nice, the gods always prefer the strong! Ankara is a future commerce city, a perfect place for a shrine.

Good work batter. I hope we are only building units with XP.
(we also should get one stable in place before building phants as this gets them 5XP out of the gate)
With the fertile northern land claimed by us I see no reason not to sign Open Boarders with Gandhi.
It will take a while to get the attack force anyway and if we are lucky our religion will spread to his cities for free.

 

[Mr. Blonde]

I just saw the post and had a look at the save. I post a screen for a minor point of critics:

There was really no reason to cottage here. Edrine is our military city and will get NO MORE science buildings (it has a lib, though) and a max of 50% modifier for gold from market/grocer. If you look at the tiles it needs every food it can get. The game is developing great, but there is still no reason to get sloppy

Imo HBR->Con->Alph is the techroute. Edrine builds a stable for the PHANTS!! and our Cap cranks out swords. Our holy city should build a monastery and start converting soon. Cap + Holy city + GPP need a monastery for science.

There is no need for hurry, Belisar. I have a slot on Sunday evening or Monday evening. Just give me something to play with Gandhi.
I would found the "LA" city (westcoast), "Miami" needs slavery first.

 

[Belisar]

I will take a shot at it tonight. If we reach the happy limit real fast we should consider Monarchy for military police as Representation is still far away.
I agree with batter that courthouses are a priority (in all cities) before the next expansion phase.

 

[batteryacid]

Calm down a bit , please
Endrine didn´t need a farm when I the decision was made, neither workshops nor lumbermills nor watermills were available, and with all cites having Libs I didn´t see a reason against working a cottage there til the classical aera when Banks/Universities are available ; the city still has 1 floodplain and 2 tiles where farms can be built and has at the moment +4 (when working the second floodplain even more). It can grow +3 (assuming it has religion and a temple) so imo the cottage there was not a bad decision

The Question is if we really need stables. WHen Ghandi is as weak as we think it may be a waste of resources to go for HBR and stables(especialy when considering that he might be the only enemy on this continent), 1 promotion should be enough when we consider that we are technologically ahead of him ;we should make open borders (or go for Alphabet/spy), examine his cites and go for construction directly; should he be stronger than we think we still can throw in HBR and build stallions

PS: I heard you are practising Tyrolean accent at the moment ?

 

[Belisar]

I think MrB (who will be a nice ET in T-land ) was just mentioning that Edrine should work as much farm/mine combos as it can afford regarding happy-limit.
There are still unmined hills and - as you mentined - river grassland for farms.
But I don't think the cottage in Edrine is a problem either as 1. we need every commerce we can get at the moment and 2. it is always great if you can MM a city between turns with different improvements available.

 

[Belisar]

Analysis:

I looked over the map a couple of minutes to examine our situation.
Our main head-ache isn't expansion (we did pretty good) but happiness. I count 7 health ressouces but only 3 happy, 2 of them ridiculous far north in the tundra.
We have ZERO calendar-ressources.
One thing I really dislike in Civ4 are the missing colonies. In Civ3, you didn't need them but they were available, now you would need them
because you cann't afford a lot of junk cities for a single ressource and you don't have them, most annoying.

Our strategy (before we get contact with the rest of the world and can conquer/trade happy-ressources
should be formed on the overall task of increasing our happy limit, which is currently the primary limitation of our economy.
I suggest 4 main mid-term tasks:

1. Courthouses for reducing maintenance and allowing further expansion (I will start this one)
2. We get Monarchy (available tech) and employ MPs in the core.
3. We get Currency (available tech). The additional trading route will help a lot and we get the important markets.
They provide additional happiness with ivory and FURS, this brings me to
4. We should get the beavers in the north-east (together with the stone).


Preturn 20BC (172):
Looking good, just some minor changes. Istanbul set to sword and MM Bursa to get the lib faster so that we can get our GP-Farm running.
I send one warrior in the southern jungle for fog-busting (to prevent spawning barbs there).

5BC (173)
Edrine finishes an axe, starts courthouse. The missionar arrives at Istanbul and spreads the truth faith
We convert and are now happy Confuzis.

10AD (174)
A barb archer turns up in the east, send a sword. It would be nice to get some CR2-swords.
OPEN BOARDERS with Gandhi to get trade routes, explore his lands and hunt down the barbs for XP.

25AD (175)
The Great Light. was built somewhere.
Ankara's boarders expand to level 3, the fish is now within range and can be used for health later (we don't need it now)

40AD (176)
Another barb archer, in the southern jungle, our warrior arrives too late and has to retreat.
Ankara finished the worker, set to courthouse.

55AD (177)
Sailing comes in and gives an instant boost to our trading routes (with Gandhi's cities)
Set to Monarchy (13turns) for the reasons already mentioned.
Kill one, spot another barb warrior north of India.

70AD (178)
Istanbul finishes sword and starts temple.
The sword wins against the barb archer and is now the first one having access to CR2 promotion.

85AD (179)
Our state-religion spreads to Konya.
One of our swords lost half of his hit points against a barb warrior! near the Indian border.

100AD (180)
A chariot explores Gandhi's land and finds his capital.
A lot of food, boxed in on a small pensulania. Looks like he has already expanded to another landmass.
We spot yellow borders, a new civ across the ozean.

115AD (181)
-

130AD (182)
Konya finishes lib, starts on a courthouse.

145AD (183)
Bursa lib, set to courthouse as well. I MM between Bursa and Edrine to time growth with Monarchy in 6 turns.
A new barb archer shows up in the forests east of Bursa.

160AD (184)
The region east of Bursa turns out to be "barb-land"
We get another 6XP-sword by killing the archer and a warrior comes in sight.

175AD (185)
Edrine's borders expand.

190AD (186)
-

205AD (187)
Istanbul gets it's temple and starts on sword.

220AD (188)
-

235AD (189)
Monarchy comes in, set to construction.
The Pyramids were built somewhere. We revolt to Hered. Rule.
Spot the next barb archer east of Bursa, 2 swords ready.

250AD (190)
Defeat the archer, sword getting promoted

265AD (191)
Edrine builds courthouse, set to granary.
Kill a barb warrior in the north with a sword.


I stop after 20 turns. After the courthouses are finished, we should be able to found the next city.
A worker could build the road already. I lean towards "LA" too because we are not financial and the east-coast city
would need the colossus to be productive (not a bad idea to build later).
When construction comes in I would go for Currency, we really need the additional trade routes.
Happy-situation looks better now with MPs (Isantbul could already support size 12) but our religion spreads awfully slow
and we will have to speed this up manualy.
After Bursa has finished the court and grows again, we should assign the first GP, maxing food (currently one farm is worked by Edrine)
We are close to the lovely phants, so things should get interesting soon. Look at all the food around Gandhi's capital,
it will make an excellent second GP-farm (we may have to relocate the city)
On a final note, try not to have more than 4 units outside our borders during peace, otherwise we will pay unit-support (the first 4 are free)

 

[Belisar]

Gandhi's land

Red arrows mark the main barb-routes (archers and warriors so far)
Blue circles mark swords I placed there, 2 of them have already enough XP for CR2

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/30880/MrB_191.CivBeyondSwordSave

 

[Mr. Blonde]

Thanks for the turns. Seems to me that Gandhi is a pushover. If we build a city 2 south of his cap we have when working the food resource tiles a surplus of 18 food that means at size 14 it can work 9 specialists. Hmm..1 tile SE would also work, but we would lose 1 hill adn don´t have the second fish
Hopefully he has no wonders until then that we want to preserve.
We would need an attack force of 2*defenders+2 or so to overwhelm a city in 1 turn. I say when we have 6 axes and 4 PHANTS we strike Bombay first, raze th Iron north and march right to his cap. We should not give him much time for whipping defenders in his cap. For the cap we build 2 cats as well, imo. I just hope Gandhi builds enough military for our first GG

Note to myself: Don´t forget to build ways to Gandhiland before the invasion

Anyway. I am heading south today, so if I get my hands on my father´s PC I may play tomorrow. Fr (football friendly game against Japan) and Saturday (school reunion) are out.

 

[batteryacid]

The save looks nice!
Ghandi is really as weak as we thought, but our continent cries for some invasion on another one before modern era. We need to spread or religion sooner or later to Bursa and Edrine (hopefully it spreads without needing to build missionars)
Concerning Luxuries: We can build 1 city North of Konya to grab Silver/Fish or Silver/Horses, land doesn´t look too nice (silver: +2happy with Forges!).
The second good place is in the far North/east and this city can grab 2 Furs, 1cow, 1 copper and when we are lucky 1 sea resource, but should be built when we have secured our continent.
Our GPF should be able to run some priests after MrB´s turns.
Question: WHy didn´t we build Miami or LA during your turns? too high maintenance at the moment?

So for attacking Ghandi- what strike force do we need? 2 Cats, 4 phants and 6 axes? or is this overpowered? Can we upgrade our chariots?

Do we need to raze Bombay? Dheli I understand as we should be able to build 2 good cites there especially with 1 grabbing all 4 sea resources and 1 cow.

 

[Mr. Blonde]

Unfortunately, we can not move Bombay to an ideal location; we either don´t have the rice resource in the fat cross or we have too much overlap with "New Delhi". There is no way to irrigate the eastcoast before biology (mountains/hills blocking for irrigation with CS), only the city with the furs could get some water. We could raze Bombay (crappy beyond imagination) but that would leave place for annoying neighbours which would block roads to "New Delhi". We can at least place a Fort on the isthmus to try out its new function as channel.
One positive side of not letting others settle on our continent: We won´t see much spy action in our cities (had some experiences on Pangea/aggressive AIs I don´t want to repeat).

 

[Belisar]

If we build a city 2 south of his cap we have when working the food resource tiles a surplus of 18 food that means at size 14 it can work 9 specialists.

Unfortunately the second fish is outside the suggested city.
We do have 3 choices here;
a) keep the city (6 specialists at size 10)
b) 1 tile south (7 specialists at size 11)
c) 2 tiles south (8 specialists at size 12)
after chain-irrigation, a) and b) would get additional farms (a=5 farms, b=4 farms; even better after biology)
still think that c) is the way to go, 8 specialists early in a size 12 city is pretty good for a second GP farm (even Bursa can just work 8-9 specialists pre-biology)

I say when we have 6 axes and 4 PHANTS we strike Bombay first, raze th Iron north and march right to his cap.

I would not build many axes. City Raider-2 (CR2) swords and shock-PHANTS would be my choice. In fact, a shock-elephant can pretty much steamroll everything Gandhi can build.
And on an additional note, I suggest not razing the iron source, simply take the city. It seems the only (still marginal) place for a city in this area.

 

[Mr. Blonde]

Unfortunately the second fish is outside the suggested city.
We do have 3 choices here;
a) keep the city (6 specialists at size 10)
b) 1 tile south (7 specialists at size 11)
c) 2 tiles south (8 specialists at size 12)
after chain-irrigation, a) and b) would get additional farms (a=5 farms, b=4 farms; even better after biology)
still think that c) is the way to go, 8 specialists early in a size 12 city is pretty good for a second GP farm (even Bursa can just work 8-9 specialists pre-biology)


I would not build many axes. City Raider-2 (CR2) swords and shock-PHANTS would be my choice. In fact, a shock-elephant can pretty much steamroll everything Gandhi can build.
And on an additional note, I suggest not razing the iron source, simply take the city. It seems the only (still marginal) place for a city in this area.

Should have said swords instead of axes maybe 4 are enough. I build 2 cats in our cap while Edrine builds stable + PHANTS. 2 tiles south means according to the pic 2 clams and 2 fish (SE-E from the new location) and the cow are in the cross!?
Anyway: Is your calculation OK? 2*clam +6 food; 2*fish +8 food 1*cow + 2 food -> +16 food or 8 SP with additional 5 pop working -> 13 pop and 8 SP (or 11 pop with 7 SP with only clam/fish)

 

[Belisar]

Question: WHy didn´t we build Miami or LA during your turns? too high maintenance at the moment?

Exactly. Pre-courthouses it is extremely hard to found more than 5,6 cities (beeing not financial or organized)

So for attacking Ghandi- what strike force do we need? 2 Cats, 4 phants and 6 axes? or is this overpowered? Can we upgrade our chariots?

We don't need any axes, CR-2 swords and phants. We do have (I think) 3 axes, you can take them but please don't build any more.
The chariots are experienced, we could use them if an axe shows up.

Do we need to raze Bombay? Dheli I understand as we should be able to build 2 good cites there especially with 1 grabbing all 4 sea resources and 1 cow.

I would keep Bombay if we can afford it.
My suggested place for "New-Dheli" is exactly the same, 2 tiles south that grabs all sea-ressources.