MSNBC Report: Al-Qaida aims to hit USA with WMDs

[MobBoss]

Here we go again.

See the US flag there? Kind of a giveaway isnt it? And Form, even you should realize that posing for a pic in traditional afghan dress isnt proof that is what he wears to go out on patrol.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Service_Group

Uhm, thats part of the Pakistan army...not the USA army. I wont speak to what other armies do.

American equipement, american uniforms. What you think this guy is ethiopian or something? Looks american to me. Just having a beard isnt much of a disguise if he is trying to not be seen as an american....

MobBoss:
You definition of a soldier is now the wearing of a uniform?

That is part of how the law of landwarfare identifies a soldier. So yeah, its kinda valid.

 

[LucyDuke]

How horrible it could mess up? Like, you sleep in and miss the flight? lol That was their big challenge, waking up on time and not gettting stuck in traffic. So, they grab a smoothy at the jamba juice and go home. Oops.

Damn, who knew mass murder was so easy?

Btw, due to my Americanization, when I refer to soldiers, I am referring to US soldiers, not soldiers on a worldwide basis.

Thank God for American freedom. In Singapore you wouldn't be allowed to come up with your own special definitions for words...

Soldiers are not terrorists. I take great offense at your remark.

...and then whine about it when someone uses the definition the rest of us all agreed on. You'd probably be made to pay a fine.

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less."
"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."

Cheezy was obviously not referring to US soldiers.

 

[Formaldehyde]

See the US flag there? Kind of a giveaway isnt it?.

Too bad it's flying from a flag pole instead of on his "uniform" where it belongs. Or do you think he takes the flag pole with him wherever he goes? And even so, would that then make whatever he was wearing a US military "uniform"?

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Cheezy was obviously not referring to US soldiers.

I was actually referring to all soldiers, but I was not calling any of them terrorists, as the Red Herring Brigade here is trying to shape my argument into being.

 

[MobBoss]

No, I've read too many memoirs by soldiers.

Ah...the old, 'I read a book' vs my 23 years of experience. Got it.

Excuse me, but there are three purposes to boot camp.

First, to destroy your social construct that killing people is bad.

No...killing people is still bad, but in war, sometimes necessary. There is a difference. We arent trained to be mindless mass-murderers. We take prisoners (without killing them) and we practice restrictive Rules of Engagement in order to keep civilian casualties to a minimum. Recruits are also taught on protected persons and locations. We are taught what force is necessary, and that lethal force isnt always the right choice.

And guess what? Lots of soldiers STILL cant pull the trigger when the time comes. Its part of what makes the difference between green troops and veterans.

Second, to destroy your social construct that unquestionably following someone else's orders is stupid.

No, by the third or fourth week of basic training you absolutely have the impression that some orders are indeed stupid, but still lawful. What is simply NOT taught is to follow orders unquestionably - to do so in every instance would be to violate the law of landwarfare by possible following an unlawful order. And the difference between lawful and unlawful orders is drummed into recruits continually, and reinforced via training as long as they are members of the military.

Maybe your books didnt include that in them.

And Third, to get your ass into shape.

Well, I cant argue that one.

Two of those three involve outright reconstruction of morals and common sense, i.e., it is brainwashing.

Except that you got it wrong. I humbly submit to you, that as a young college graduate, you experienced more brainwashing in your 4 years or so of college than a recruit does in his 9 weeks of basic training. In fact, I would go further in saying that the brainwashing you had in college was far more effective because it was done for over a much greater length of time by people you absolutely had to follow if you wanted to graduate.

Its not a difference you understand yourself.

I bet my years of experience vs your books that I do.

Then why do we award them the highest military medal for it?

What part of 'above and beyond their duty' description of that medal do you not seem to grasp?

Yes you sure have the lead on me with years of behind-the-desk experience.

Although you mean that as an insult I will turn it back on you. Yes, my years of behind the desk experience absolutely count more than your employment at Applebees while in college did for you in this particular argument. Now, you may have me on the wearing of flash, sure, but in this particular conversation I will happily stack up my experience over anything you have done in your life. You betcha.

Recognizing that an act takes guts is not glorifying the act or the actors. Stop trolling.

Of course it is gloryfying it. Just listen to yourself.

 

[MobBoss]

Too bad its flying from a flag pole instead of on his "uniform" where it belongs. Or do you think he takes the flag pole with him wherever he goes?

I know he is required by regulation to be identifiable as a US soldier when he goes on patrol, yes. As to whether this particular person abides by the regulation or not, I have no idea. You seem to think that all soldiers follow the rules 100% of the time. Guess what? They dont, even though the vast majority do. Hell, if they all did I would probably be out of a job.

 

[say1988]

No Cheezy, but my opinion:

Is a guy who breaks into a home and rapes and murders some little girls brave too?

He could get caught... things could go wrong... he's pretty brave, right?

Brave or crazy. Depends on his motivations and state of mind (if a person isn't conscious of the danger, then he may well not be brave or has no choice [in his mind]).

Hell... the children's parents could kill him, so he's a soldier, right?

No. Not unless he is part of an organization and this is an attempt to further their goals, then he may be.

 

[say1988]

Uhm, thats part of the Pakistan army...not the USA army. I wont speak to what other armies do.

But you said to be soldiers they have to wear uniforms. As such you are saying that members of the Special Service Group are not soldiers.
Or is this back to the rule that to be something means to be the US version of it?

And because there are conventions on warfare, doesn't mean that if a soldier in the employ of a party not recognizing the treaty isn't a soldier.
Are Americans not soldiers if they use landmines? There is an international convention against them.
Or if they violate the portion of the Geneva Conventions that they have not been ratified?

 

[LucyDuke]

I was actually referring to all soldiers, but I was not calling any of them terrorists, as the Red Herring Brigade here is trying to shape my argument into being.

My fault, then, I had forgotten you. All soldiers, perhaps, but at least not particularly US soldiers. Soldiers sure are touchy! I think I'd've been quicker that "some terrorists are soldiers" does not indicate "all soldiers are terrorists" to stave off the hot air, since unfortunately Logic 101 is not an OT pre-req. Humpty Dumpty is no less ridiculous for my assumption. Carry on.

 

[orrery]

I am going to react to the comment that these individuals were "ballsy" and "bold"

The answer is quite frankly:

No, they were not.

They were "delusional" "psychotic" suffering from "psychosis" and mentally disconnected from reality.

Probably experiencing Post-Traumatic Syndrome and a Delusional Disorder.

What Bruce Willis did at the end of Armageddon was "bold" and "brave" and in that moment you see the character bravely facing death.

The hijackers were delusional psychotic individuals.

Nothing else.

 

[bombshoo]

How do we know they were psychotic? They are dead so we can't give them mental exams. Just blowing up a building in a suicide attack isn't psychotic in its self. Their logic was sound given their perception of the universe. They thought (roughly) that they would be rewarded in Heaven and that Islam is the only true religion and all other faiths are destroying humanity. If this were true than what they did makes sense. It isn't true so what they did was wrong, but they certainly aren't psychotic in same sense Jeffery Dahmer was.

 

[orrery]

How do we know they were psychotic? They are dead so we can't give them mental exams. Just blowing up a building in a suicide attack isn't psychotic in its self. Their logic was sound given their perception of the universe. They thought (roughly) that they would be rewarded in Heaven and that Islam is the only true religion and all other faiths are destroying humanity. If this were true than what they did makes sense. It isn't true so what they did was wrong, but they certainly aren't psychotic in same sense Jeffery Dahmer was.

Anyone who is suicidal is psychotic. The delusional aspect comes in when they believed that their death was in fact, not death. You can not boldly face death if you do not believe in dying. They viewed their lives as merely a lucid dream and upon dying they would merely "wake up" in heaven.

Delusional Psychosis. Sure it may have made sense to them, but that merely highlights their disconnect from reality.

 

[bombshoo]

Anyone who is suicidal is psychotic. The delusional aspect comes in when they believed that their death was in fact, not death. You can not boldly face death if you do not believe in dying. They viewed their lives as merely a lucid dream and upon dying they would merely "wake up" in heaven.

Delusional Psychosis. Sure it may have made sense to them, but that merely highlights their disconnect from reality.

A lot of fully functional people believe that dying is not death and they are not classified as psychotic. I see what you mean in them being delusional, they were certainly delusional in multiple aspects but I don't think they were psycho-crazy.

 

[orrery]

A lot of fully functional people believe that dying is not death and they are classified as psychotic. I see what you mean in them being delusional, they were certainly delusional in multiple aspects but I don't think they were psycho-crazy.

Probably not psycho-crazy like a dog with rabies, but definitely psycho-crazy in the sense of a really ed up stoned crack head who just lost his job and is planning on going on a killing spree at his former work place in pursuit of some perverted idea of social justice.

I'm thinking:
"Columbine crazy"
"fired employee goes on killing spree"
"Virginia Tech Massacre"

^^ that kind of crazy.

 

[say1988]

Anyone who is suicidal is psychotic.

So, the soldier who jumps on a grenade to save his comrades is not brave, just psychotic.

Many of these people think either
Short term pain for long term gain (afterlife), which isn't particularly brave from my view
or that their death is necessary to further their cause, in which case, if they don't want to die, then it likely is brave, unless of course they truly are insane.

They may have unreasonable beliefs, but starring death in the face and working towards it, often for at least several months.
A distorted world view does not mean that they don't understand the consequences of their actions.

 

[MobBoss]

So, the soldier who jumps on a grenade to save his comrades is not brave, just psychotic.

Do you really equate that with suicidal behavior? I dont. I attribute it to simple reaction, and I dont think they are thinking about the ramifications of their action at all, since it all happens so fast. Kind of like the person who swerves to miss an animal in the road only to wreck into a ditch or tree. If they really thought about it clearly, they would just squish the bunny and drive on.

 

[LucyDuke]

I am going to react to the comment that these individuals were "ballsy" and "bold"

The answer is quite frankly:

No, they were not.

They were "delusional" "psychotic" suffering from "psychosis" and mentally disconnected from reality.

Probably experiencing Post-Traumatic Syndrome and a Delusional Disorder.

What Bruce Willis did at the end of Armageddon was "bold" and "brave" and in that moment you see the character bravely facing death.

The hijackers were delusional psychotic individuals.

Nothing else.

A delusional person can behave boldly. It's describing their actions, not their motivations.

And I'm not entirely convinced they were exactly "psychotic", but that's another thread.

 

[Ecofarm]

A delusional person can behave boldly. It's describing their actions, not their motivations.

Brave is motivation, that being impersonal.

Without impersonal, brave does not exist; brainwashed wackery does not count. One must do it for the direct good of people, or I'm not convinced.

 

[orrery]

So, the soldier who jumps on a grenade to save his comrades is not brave, just psychotic.

Many of these people think either
Short term pain for long term gain (afterlife), which isn't particularly brave from my view
or that their death is necessary to further their cause, in which case, if they don't want to die, then it likely is brave, unless of course they truly are insane.

They may have unreasonable beliefs, but starring death in the face and working towards it, often for at least several months.
A distorted world view does not mean that they don't understand the consequences of their actions.

A distorted world view doesn't mean they do understand the consequences of their actions either. In this case, they obviously did not. Furthermore, they weren't staring death in the face, they were too busy being fixated on the idea that death does not exist.

We see this with Cults like the Heaven's Gate Cult.

Once again. ^^ batpoop crazy

 

[say1988]

Do you really equate that with suicidal behavior?

I'll give you that one. But what about any occasion where a person knowingly puts himself in a situation that means almost certain death to help people?
If you would rather live, but knowingly look towards death and sacrifice yourself for the betterment or some other person or cause, I would consider that brave. Quite possibly misguided, but brave nonetheless.

A distorted world view doesn't mean they do understand the consequences of their actions either. In this case, they obviously did not. Furthermore, they weren't staring death in the face, they were too busy being fixated on the idea that death does not exist.

Agreed, I should have said "...does not necessarily mean..."
It goes either way, depending how their views are distorted.

And how do you know the mindset of the individuals? For some of them, their main reason may have been aiding their fellow Muslims or just their family (though misguided would indicate bravery). Just because they they expect to continue in the afterlife (as most Christians do) doesn't mean they wouldn't prefer to live a long life before getting there.