MTDG - 1: "Alexander Asimov"

I probably should have posted a long time ago, but I got into a groove and couldn't stop. At the time noone had really answered my question on when we should post. Here's my save. I don't know if I should go into detail so as not to spoil things for anyone else. The year is 780A.D.

Alexander780AD.SAV
 
I probably should have posted a long time ago, but I got into a groove and couldn't stop. At the time noone had really answered my question on when we should post. Here's my save. I don't know if I should go into detail so as not to spoil things for anyone else. The year is 780A.D.

Alexander780AD.SAV


Ok, how do I attach my saved game? Attaching a link from my webpage doesn't work.
 
Well, here are my first 10 turns. Looks like I do things a bit differently, I guess...

4000 BC- starting location is excellent. Sent Worker to improfve the resource sqaure to the E, then he'll go to the cow square. Set Athens to build Hoplite (defense! defense!), set research at 1.9.0 going for Warrior Code- get us some offensive units in case someone else is close. After that i'll go for Lit, I think.

3950BC- 3800BC- Zzzzzzz.

3750 BC- Worker starts improving the cow-square. What is the keystoke for "Build Corral" anyway?

3700-3650BC- Zzzzzz.

3600 BC- the cow-square is done- sent Worker to improve the resource square immediately to his NE to prep for a city site there. Looks like there is coast 1 square away, which should leave enough development room for another city.

3550BC- Athens built Hoplite, started a Settler. Sent Hoplite to goody hut to the E- dangit, Barbarians!

Game saved.
 
Oh- probably should have mentioned I put Athens on the starting square!

Duh.
 
Originally posted by heikeott
4000 BC - Looks like a great start. Fresh water and everything. Because of Snoopy terrain mod can see lux in SW, but not worth moving away from fresh water. Founded Athens right where we stand.
Perfectly valid reasoning, even though some may argue otherwise. (I will postpone voicing my opinion, but will come back to it later.)
I would argue however against Snoopy, since it gives you an unfair advantage.
Agreement for rest of turn.
PS - what is "auto-explore" and how does one use it??
I don't know, but I wouldn't automate anything this early in the game.
 
Originally posted by dcaint
Well, here are my first 10 turns. Looks like I do things a bit differently, I guess...

4000 BC- starting location is excellent. Sent Worker to improfve the resource sqaure to the E, then he'll go to the cow square. Set Athens to build Hoplite (defense! defense!), set research at 1.9.0 going for Warrior Code- get us some offensive units in case someone else is close. After that i'll go for Lit, I think.
I prefer to build half price warriors. Barbs are sedentary and I never experienced a very early attack by another civ on my capital.
You will go for GLib, I suppose? Many do, I don't. Matter of personal preferences..
 
Snoopy terrain gives me an unfair advantage?? :eek: It is used in GOTM and other SG's, is it not? The situation of being able to spot a resource that one *might* not not be able to see under FoW with standard terrain is the only situation I can think of where it is an advantage, although Cracker in his Opening Moves strategy articles points out how you can see them if you look carefully enough. Besides, we are only playing to learn here, right?

Tao, you are quite the :whipped: !! :)
 
Heike, what is the Snoopy terrain mod?

Regardless of game ethics, it sounds different from Cracker's suggestions, which are all about looking carefully at what's there to be seen by the naked eye, with the game that comes oiut of the box.
 
Txurce:

IMHO, Snoopy's is apparently the most popular set of terrain modifications. It provides different graphics for forests, mountains, plains, etc. Primarily the modifications are more aesthetically pleasing and make it easier to differentiate some types of terrain from the others (plains from desert for example).
Come to think of it, it isn't actually Snoopy's that puts the little smiley faces over the luxury resources and the white circles over the strategic resources, it's that other one I downloaded.

I have the worst time trying to find coal and some of the other resources, I just can't see them on the map, so I downloaded this graphics pack that makes them easier to see. It doesn't change any rules or mod any units, it just changes the way things look on the map.

It never occurred to me that the smiley face would stick out of the FoW. Maybe it doesn't - I should go back to that opening map without the mod and see if I can detect the luxury. Anyway, it didn't affect my decision or any of my moves. I did the same as I would have done if I hadn't seen it there. :hmm:
 
Originally posted by Txurce
Heike, what is the Snoopy terrain mod?

Regardless of game ethics, it sounds different from Cracker's suggestions, which are all about looking carefully at what's there to be seen by the naked eye, with the game that comes oiut of the box.

Here.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8969

I use it and recommend it; however, I'm not aware of any benefit in its use other than ascetics.
 
Dennis, exploration is important early in the game, so you probably would have been better off building at least one warrior to explore, prior to covering your butt with a hoplite.

Researching warrior code for defense is fine, as you can immediately build archers, but there are arguments to be made against it. You could have researched iron working, which would give you better offensive units, although only if you had iron handy. As a rule, it's better to research ahead - no one has iron working or writing - as opposed to parallel (warrior code), if only because you can probably trade for it as soon as you encounter another civ (with that exploring warrior!). In the case of Greece with its hoplite, however, you could argue that you don't need offensive units for defense (if that's why you're building them).

You built roads in all the right places, which is good, but you didn't mine anything, which will slow down your productivity. Had you mined that first grassland, for example, you could have had an extra warrior, and still build that settler just as your pop hits 3. Improving squares almost always means both building a road plus either mining or irrigating it.

The site you've chosen for your second city is okay, but not optimal. Building near the luxury resource may be a better bet, although you don't need its benefits so early at regent level. However, both of these easterly locations are relatively secure, because they're bounded by water and your capital is in the way from the other side. It generally makes sense to build toward the AI, which in this case means heading west fo now. The reason for this is that you thereby take territory that's likely to be contested, making your empire bigger at your neighbor's expense. Then you could "backfill" those eastern city sites later.

Finally, if you're not expansionist it's dangerous to pop huts without proper defenses, as you just discovered - that westernmost barbarian is about to sack Athens. The hut wasn't going anywhere, so you should have waited to open it.
 
In the beginning...

1. Regarding what units to build.
I always have a defender in each city as my top priority. Its a hard rule, too many things can go wrong. Warriors are fine to start out for the first 3 or 4 units. Remember your priorities: exploration, defending your cities, founding new cities. As another rule I always escort settlers and use them to defend the new city. That new city then builds either a defender or a worker depending on the terrain. Fortify the new defender and build a settler. When you get the settler send out the extra defender with the settler and repeat.

2. Regarding tile improvements.
Survey the future site of the city (2 tiles out). If most of the tiles are good for food e.i. grassland, plains, flood plains, I go by these guidelines: Irrigate plains to give you two food and continue grow. Mine grassland to give a shield because it already gives two food. If the city has a good amount of mountains and hills, then mine those and irrigate some grassland tiles to compensate and keep growth going. Do not build a city on a site with few or no tiles that can give you two or more food unless next to the sea. Oh, and don't automate workers, they will drown you.

3. Regarding wonders.
Pick out one of your cities early on, maybe your capitol, that has production potential and build a temple before you get the advance with the wonder you want. Then prebuild with an improvement that takes the longest and switch to the wonder when you discover it. Later build a defender in another city and move him to the wonder city because up to two defenders make citizens happy under despotism (three under monarchy).

Plus connect all your cities w/roads as first priority for your workers to connect resources.

Just a couple o tips. You can eat them with or without A1 for flavor, your choice.

So, when do we continue this saga to the next 10 turns? I can't wait till we get into a war. I would like to see some details on tactics and motivation described.
 
n8mac, that's generally good advice. I still send settlers out unescorted, because getting that city started sooner can make a big difference, but you make a good case for the efficiency of escorting. As a rule I wouldn't build early wonders in the capital: it affords the shortest prebuild time of any city, since it can't prebuild a palace, and most of the other ancient-era prebuilds are very short. You're better off making another site your wonder city.

As for the next ten turns, I would think that players could submit them whenever they're ready.
 
Which game do we play forward from? I thought we agreed we'd pick one game to go the next 10 turns from each time so that we don't get too far apart..?
 
Heike, that's a good point. Here's how I see it: only two players have posted ten-turn saves. We have no idea how many others intend to post, or when. I don't see any reason to wait, if you don't know what you're waiting for. Since only you and Dennis posted, I would suggest that you just keep playing your own games, if you'd like; otherwise, your start seems slightly more optimal. However, I'll have no problem commenting on two (or more) separate games. It would only be confusing if there were lots of players doing this, and there don't seem to be.

Dixonbm, I can't download your game.
 
Hi, Can I join. I have taken the game on another 10 moves as we seem to have good agreement that we have developed as best we can - see below for commentary and enclosure.

3550 BC M0 - Move warrier 1 S. left over move ?

3500 BC M1 - Move settler to cattle tile. Move (SE) Warrier 1 further S confirming no land to SE. Move warrier 2 W .

3450 BC M2 - Mine cattle tile (we can mine bonus grassland around lake for 2 food + 2 R) while irrigate for 3 food is capped under Despotism plus but there is no major resource tile so in this case go for mine. Move warrier 1 west (check for possible city square covering silk). Move warrier 2 NW.

3400 BC M3 - Move warrier 1 W. Move warrier 2 N. (could we be on end of continent ? need to check NE but don?t want to waste moves retracing steps - tough call) .

3350 BC M4 - Move warrier 1 W & warrier 2 N (definite ocean).

3300 BC M5 - Move warrier 1 SW & warrier 2 NE to check if land-bridge to N (near top of map so only a maybe).

3250 BC M6 - Move warrier 2 E - discover silk. Move warrier 1 S - discover two cows ! (SW location good for next city as towards likely AIs and cattle will give fast growth.

3200 BC M7 - Move warrier 2 E (confirmation we are on end eastern of continent - we don?t have to watch our backs). Move warrier 2 S reveals whale - makes for even better city location on coast.

3150 BC M8 - Produce Settler - set to Hoplite (7) while build up pop (7). Move settler S (heading for forest square on coast to give whale / cattle / silk). Build road on Cattle tile. Move warrier 1 W and warrier 2 SW.

3100 BC M9 - Move warrier 1 W (river with flood plains & warrier 2 SE. Move settler S.

3050 BC M10 - Move warrier 2 SE, move settler S, move warrier 1 W - river flows into ocean ?).

Suggest we switch settler to new location on western river to push border W with backfill later. This will lose some resources but secure a significantly westward border.

Overall : Warrier 1 discovers valuable resources and new city sites. Warrier 2 while confirming shape of continent & resource had to backtrack - wastefull. Should we have pushed West and checked out north later ? Probably yes but hindsight is easy.
 
Here are my turns, in which I tried to follow not the most obvious approach.

4000 bc
It looks like a good (not excellent) starting position; lake, 4 bonus grasslands, 2 forrest. Lots of opportunities to shuffle worked tiles. However: founding on the spot would waste a bonus shield. We would have 3 plains in our city radius. Why not move one step north? Let's try it. I just like to have as much future potential in my cities as possible: fewer, but better production powerhouses.
Next question: Move the worker to "have a look"? or Make a "decisive" move with the settler? I decided to move the settler, because that allows us for immediately mining the bonus grassland.
Settler moves and: :) we have cattle. We have to move the worker to the cattle asap, but do this NE, N to learn about our surroundings.
3950 Athens founded, start warrior, worker moved to cattle, research iron works at 20% due in 40 turns. It looks like silk in the north.
3900 start to irrigate cattle
3850
3800
3750
3700 Athens b warrior starts settler; worker starts road; warrior moves SE to explore
3600 switch Athens warior to enable settler popping; warrior pops 25 g from barbarian village; reset to settler
3650 Athens grows to pop 2; settler and pop 3 in 7 turns
3550 worker moves to bonus grassland
3500 warrior finds silk; coastal spot selected for next city

tao_mtdg-1_3500.jpg
 
3550 Warrior S (exploring)
3500 Athens expands. Worker finishes improving tile, moves N. War S, War W.
3450 I see my first mistake - I can't irrigate the cattle w/o backtracking. Oh well, try mine I guess. Warriors explore to S & W.
3400 - 3250 Warriors continue exploring West, southwest.
3200 Athens builds settler, and I see my second mistake - no optimal place to put 2nd city. Grassland coastal tiles are too close. :( Begin Hoplite.
3150 Settler heads south for coastal plains site.
3100 Warriors still exploring, worker still mining, settler heading south. Will place on forest square, making it plains. No overlap but no wasted tiles.
Game saved.

Well now I see some advantages to your founding Athens 1 tile North, but I don't know how you could have known with only the tiles we could see initially. The plains tiles that you avoided putting into Athens were not even visible on our initial view!
 
Macbaldrick, good turn. I agree that exploring westward makes more sense, as it's where the AI is likely to be. And I think you have it backward about the cattle under despotism: you could have gotten an extra food, but won't get a (third) extra shield.
 
Tao, you're bucking Cracker's well-researched starting strategy about almost always building where you stand? Now you have the burden of making it work!

As I posted earlier, I would have sent my warrior away from the coast and therefore on a southwesterly direction. This would have revealed that the silk site is safe for the time being, and I would thus send my settler due west. (I say this to illustrate other options, as building the second city by the silk is obviously a good idea.)
 
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