MTDG - 1: "Alexander Asimov"

[MacBaldrick]

Txurce

I think I got it right but it is a judgement call.

Basic Grassland (2+0+0) + cattle gives 3(4)+1+0. Adding mine gives 3(4)+2+0 while Irr gives 4(5)+1+0. You can have either extra food or resources. The extra food is capped in all options during Despotism - yes? IMHO we need resources more than food to build units/improvements in the capital.
Ditto the other bonus grassland squares (basic 2+1+0) with mines gives 2+2+0 while Irr. gives 2(3)+1+0 again capped. There are enough bonus grassland tiles to irrigate later for better growth of 3+1+0 tile (mine non-bonus tiles for 2+1+0).

Yes more food means faster growth but it will take resources to build worker to mine grassland to get resources. I hav'nt analysed it at Crackers level to see the best outcome over tens of turns.

In all cases roads will add missing trade/gold.

Tao / Heike

City on SE coast capturing silk seems good idea (I thought so) but later exploration shows silk can be covered by SW city with Cattle & Whale ! City in SE will have to be right on coast with harbour - right place to set sail eastward later in the game.

 

[heikeott]

So what happened? What are we waiting for? I tend to think that anyone who hasn't posted their 2nd ten turns yet, isn't going to and we could/should move forward?

 

[dcaint]

Sorry- been incredibly busy- please go on without me for now. So sorry to have held everyone up!

 

[tao]

Originally posted by Txurce
Tao, you're bucking Cracker's well-researched starting strategy about almost always building where you stand? Now you have the burden of making it work!

I'll do my very best.
3450 our borders grow; as expected: another silk in the north, but outside our city radius
3400
3350
3300 Athens b settler starts next
3250 nice city location with 3 cattle plus whale in the south; our next city will go here
3200
3150 Sparta founded; starts warrior
people love us and expand palace
3100
3050

PS: Let's make our next stops at 2590bc, 2190 bc.

 

[Txurce]

Tao, excellent turn. Now a question: how did you irrigate the cattle, since it was one tile off the lake? Does it have to do with building the capital in a different location (!), and using the city itself as an irrigated square from which to further irrigate? Normally this wouldn't work, but maybe it's different when bordering a water resource, and the city square is automatically irrigated. In this case, movig the settler may well have been the best move!

 

[tao]

Originally posted by Txurce
Now a question: how did you irrigate the cattle, since it was one tile off the lake? Does it have to do with building the capital in a different location (!), and using the city itself as an irrigated square from which to further irrigate? Normally this wouldn't work, but maybe it's different when bordering a water resource, and the city square is automatically irrigated. In this case, movig the settler may well have been the best move!

IIRC cities propagate water unless on a hill.

Contrary to MacBaldrick, I'm a firm believer in early pop growth. Food is much more important than shields (or gold) im your first city. At least until you have a settler factory elsewhere.

 

[MacBaldrick]

My point was not shields before food rather don't develop above 2 units (food/shields/gold) early on, while you are in despotism, because you lose the first additional unit. Go for 2/2/ x by irrigating / mining the tile as appropriate. However, since a 3/x/x tile has already incurred the penalty irrigation is OK - the city move strategy gets round the how.

Question ? Are we still following the original game or do we want two parallel games to compare. I have taken another 10 turns of the original but have yet to write the commentary. Maybe tonight after my jogging (yes some of us have a life away from a mac )

 

[MacBaldrick]

A further 10 turns on the original game.

3000 BC - Explore N up river & W. Move Settler W.

2950 BC - Ditto. Redirect Settler to upper river rather than flood plain / desert of S location.

2900 BC - Discover Barb camp just N or bend in river & wheat in N. Move worker to SW of Athens and mine / road tile.

2850 BC - Get new warrier from barb camp. Forests with Game appear to W.

2800 BC - Continue pushing warrier W uncovering another wheat tile.

2750 BC - More promising land to W (3 cattle tiles + lake).

2710 BC - Found Sparta (build warrior). Athens builds worker, move SW - build Barracks. Note river continues W (good site for another city if we wish to push as west as possible).

2670 BC - 1st worker completes mine, build road. 2nd worker builds road towards Sparta. Warrier discovers edge of Civ (red - Rome ?).

2630 BC - Contact with Romans. Roman Warrier heading E.

2590 BC - Trade 90 g for Warrior Code (decline Ceremonial Burial at 12 g + 3 gpt - originally 60 g). I don?t think we need temples yet but Wheel / Horeback Riding will give mobility for our westward expansion. Change research to Wheel in 4 turns - Rome will doubless research Iron Working for Legionary. Warrior reveals Rome.

General strategy has been to push as far west as possible till we find other Civs then backfill cities. The attached screenshot shows possible city sites. An alternative strategy would be to keep growth near the capital = easier and quicker to link with roads but other Civs may limit our later growth.

 

[Txurce]

Macbaldrick, I agree with your reasoning for first expanding westward, versus south to the luxury area - especially on regent, where you won't need luxuries as quickly. Building a worker so early will also pay dividends. Now, what could have been done differently?

1. We've covered irrigating the cattle, the better to help you fill in all that territory.

2. Building Sparta that far west isn't going to help. The "border" is arbitrary, as Rome could easily build past it. Those cows you lust after are probably too far to fall within your domain by peaceful means. In the meantime, it'll take a long time to connect your cities. If Sparta's location were spectacular, you'd have a better argument... but it's not, so you would have been better off building contiguously west of Athens.

3. You're researching the wheel and building a barracks very early in the game, so your strategy seems to be military expansion. Maybe there's a target to the southwest; if there is, I suggest you go after them. The Romans are the toughest civ to expand against early, and you don't have an immortal or MW to match up against them. The wheel, followed by horseback riding, will give you a unit that I love, but that sucks against the legionnary.

4. Rome can't take you - nobody can - because of the hoplite. You can sit back securely and build an advanced society more easily than any other civ. I would have researched writing from the start, and certainly ahead of the wheel. This tech takes you to literature, cheap libraries, and likely control of the research game. It's a style suited to the Greeks.

5. Building a barracks is the right move to build an offensive force, and you could also use it to build vet hoplites. An alternative - not necessarily better than what you did, but more in keeping with Greece's strengths - would have been to build warrior scouts and send them everywhere. You need to meet other civs, and then trade tech with them, so the Romans can't squeeze you so hard for the techs they picked up from someone else. That's where writing dovetails, as you can trade communications once you've met various civs. A granary in Athens would also help, but the Romans would have needed to give you that. A temple is also a sound aggressive move against Rome, which is traditionally culture-poor.

 

[MacBaldrick]

Txurce,

Most of your points are quite valid. I followed the push west strategy to see what would turn up. We got further west than I imagined and yes, how we fill in the border undermines this approach.

On reflection literature is the better research strategy, not sure now why we started with Iron Working at such a slow rate. We can switch. I think I went for barracks such not enough pop for further settlers (downside of not pushing food?) rather than further non-vet units (no other improvements yet) as eventually Athens will be a resource city - but yet probably too soon.

Hadn't considered warrier scouts - however our existing warriors while slow are already out west.

So should we push a settler down to the S,SW to build a settler factory city on the coast next/near the bonus squares ? Will need a colony to access the spices which would fall betwen the two cities. These tactics are equally valid for the alt. game which has expanded east and now needs to push west. The plains to the west will not grow quickly without irrigation and water is a long way off - hence going the extra distance to the river. However, there is a lot of land to the west so Rome & other should take some time to encroach.

I'll try both games for another 10 turns.

 

[Txurce]

MacBaldrick, I would have headed west as well, and the fact that the land immediately to the west is rather barren is... unfortunate. Factoring in the river is good longterm thinking - the sort that I didn't incorporate for a very long time, as I tend to expand in concentric rings, with exceptions for exceptions. However, you could have used the desert lake as a water source, rather than going all the way to the river. (You could have also changed your mind after hitting the desert.) Having gone to the river, there is an argument for building a city by the lake to keep your borders contiguous (and make roadbuilding easier).

Where to expand? Keep an eye on the dyes to the south, but there's no rush to incorporate those yet. I wouldn't waste a worker on a colony so early; if the proposed city to the east can't possibly cover it, you may want to wait for Athens' borders to expand (and they will, even faster if you build a temple or library). I would say that the cattle south of Sparta and the wheat north of it are tempting targets. The cattle can be irrigated, however, making it a more promising settler factory - not to mention that it's closer to Athens, and closer to the expected easier-than-Rome civ you'll pick on first!

Building a barracks early is a very subjective decision. I do it every time I expect to fight, or if I am waiting for the pop to grow enough to build a settler (and the shields work out right). There is a real value to using Athens as the supplier of vet hoplites to all of your cities - especially with a mined cattle!

I agree that your warriors are doing a decent job of scouting. Whether you squeeze out any more between other military builds is up to you. (I'm trying to remain a strictly backseat driver, which I realize is infinitely more annoying.)

Feel free to play either or both games - this is about training, after all. Since there's clearly no organized pattern on this thread, submit them whenever you like.

 

[MacBaldrick]

On reflection I reran the last move, trading Rome for Ceremonial burial. I have uploaded this game as Alexander 2059 BC.SAV. Will upload 2190 BC once I write up commentary.

Where is Tao's 3050 BC end-of-turn ?

 

[MacBaldrick]

2059 - 2190 BC Expansionist Option

2550 BC - Science set to discover Writing. Worker complete mining & joins 2nd worker to build road to Sparta. ?Invited? to leave Roman territory.

2510 BC - Sparta builds warrior (send S to explore)- set toTemple, Rome build Vaii.

2510 BC , 2470 BC , 2430 BC

2390 BC - Egypt discovered. Trade Pottery for 23 g. Switch Athens & Sparta to Granary. Warrior discovers grassland beyond western mountains.

2350 BC , 2310 BC

2270 BC - Western warrior / explore defeats Barb attack. Continues exploration.

2230 BC

2190 BC - Athens buils Granary - set to Settler. Workers have nearly completed road to Sparta. No Civs discovered in West.

 

[Txurce]

Macbaldrick, with regard to the expansionist option: Good turn. Building that long road will eventually pay dividends. And you have now found a civ you can take pretty easily, should you wish to: Egypt. Your next decision is whether you want to go to war soon, or not. By soon, I mean no earlier than the construction of four of five cities.

In the meantime, where do you build those cities? Now that I can see your map, the cattle to the south have no irrigation, making them not quite as tempting as the wheat just north of Sparta (which blocks Rome). Then there's the luxury north of Athens, in fertile territory fairly close to water. Strategically, the optimal strategy is probably to block Rome and build toward Egypt (your likely war victim). However, have enough hoplites ready to defend your borders, as you don't want Roman settlers traipsing through and building in your interior. (Exploration is going well enough to tell you that Rome is going to be a ***** - they have a lot of cattle on grasslands, and plenty of irrigation.)

You built one granary (why isn't it registering on the city screen?), and are building another. If this is your basic strategy, fine. If you are doing it to build a dedicated settler factory, you only need one... and should consider irrigating that mined cattle.

 

[tao]

MacBaldrick, you need an awful long time to build and connect Sparta. I decided to settle closer and to prepare for an attack on Egypt.
I also firmly agree with Txurce: cattle must be irrigated. In despotism, you can get a number of 2 shield tiles, but having lots of food in your capital is great for both settler and wonder building as you will see once I post more of my game (I already played into industrial times).
PS: May I suggest you use a graphics editor to cut maps you post down in size.

Spolier warning: since I know iron working and the wheel, both horses and iron are on my map.

3000
2950 we detect borders in the SW
2900 Sparta b warrior s next; contact to Egypt; trade alphabet for their ceremonial burial+10g
2850 Athens b settler s barracks
2800
2710
2670 Sparta grows, b warrior, s worker
2630 meet American scout; trade 1gpt+3g to Egypt for pottery; switch Athens to granary
2590 build Thermopylae at 2 cows+whale coastal site s warrior
2550 Sparta b worker s warrior
2510
2470 America gives masonry, warrior code, 6g for 5 gpt
2430 Samartians tell us mystery; see red borders in the West
2390 Thermopyla b warrior s temple; lux to 10%
2350 Sparta b warrior s next; send to Athens; Patzinals tell us wheel; no horses in our borders
trade masonry to Rome for 10g; trade wheel to America for 72g + 1gpt
2310 warrior in Athens, lux to 0%;
2270 rearrange tiles between Athens and Sparta: Sparta still b warrior in 2, Athens b granary in 2 (instead 3), grows in 3
2230 research to 10% iron working still in 3 turns
2190 Athens b granary s settler; Sparta b warrior s temple; warrior to Athens
Rome beats us to iron working; trade it for the wheel; research writing at 90% (24 turns, -5 gpt)

Saved file at 2190 bc

Suggest next turn till 1525 bc.

 

[MacBaldrick]

Hi All,

Tearing myself away from the Editor (map of new Zealand in the works) I have taken Tao's game another step forward with screenshot.

2190 - 1525 BC Compact Growth Strategy

2150, 2110 BC,
2070 BC Athens b Settler, s Warrior, send Settler W with Warror escort.
1990 BC Destroy Barb village in W(S), Warrior now vet.
1950 BC Athens b Warrier, s Warrior, send Warrior to Sparta
1910 BC mm Athens / Sparta
1870 BC Found Corinth, s Worker, Barb village in W gives 25g
1830 BC Worker move to mine S of Athens
1790 BC Worker continues road S
1725, 1700 BC
1675 BC Thermopylae b Temple, s Barracks
1650 BC Sparta b Temple, s Settler, manage Athens with Tax Collector (Entertainer not required yet)
1625 BC
1600 BC, complete road to Thermopylae, b road to silk
1575 BC Corinth b Worker, s Granary,
1550 BC Worker set to b road SW of Sparta. Discover Writing, establish Embassies with Rome & Egypt. Both have Horseback Riding - not worth trading as no extra gold ?
1525 BC Trade Rome Writing for Horseback Riding, Trade America HR for 40g

Workers will shortly access Silk. Settlers ready soon to occupy sites in SW (near Silk) and W (near lake?). Research targeted on Literature for Libraries.

Game uploaded as Alex, 1525 BC MacBaldrick.sav.zip

I will also post a screenshot of my outcome on the standard game at same date. Game is Alex, 1525 BC std.sav.zip

 

[MacBaldrick]

Screenshot of similar position