MTDG3 Preparation PitBoss

[Lord Parkin]

It's true I once blockaded two cities in a double move at the very end of a game many years ago. This mistake was discussed and resolved long ago, and did not affect the outcome at all. If 2metraninja feels that a continuous abuse of a serious exploit across the 100+ turns remaining in a game years later is somehow an appropriate response to an ancient non-issue, then sadly I don't think we can proceed with rational discussions.

for example the ISDG vote - 5 out of 9 teams voted YES to all espionage missions

A vote split as close as possible to 50/50 indicates the presence, rather than lack, of serious controversy.

And CSM is absolutely not the same as infinite techs from Liberalism or building two things in city in a single turn or getting enormous repetitive GPT deals from ally or whatever exploit. It is just very strong technique in the right situation.

If you honestly think a few applications of 200 EP is an appropriate cost for destroying 50000+ beakers (not to mention hundreds of promotions), then it seems we'll have to part ways. It is quite clearly a broken game element.

Like nukes for example. Are they banned from each and every game just because you play in it?

No-one's said anything about nukes. I don't have any issue with them.

 

[Lord Parkin]

Thank you for pausing the game, 2metra.

I hope you guys can resolve this without my intervention. If I am needed to arbiter though, let me know. I will follow the discussion.

Thanks Caledorn - though that shouldn't be necessary. If we come to an agreement about the civic/religion missions being a problem, then that'll be easily sorted. If some players wish to continue using the broken game elements unimpeded, I'll simply hand over the Inca to someone else with no further fuss.

 

[Bowsling]

Why hadn't you spread Confucianism to your main cities anyways?

 

[Lord Parkin]

Why hadn't you spread Confucianism to your main cities anyways?

To spread the religion alone would cost 40 hammers per city (minimum - assuming no fails), not to mention helping my rival by 1-3 gpt per city. Then it'd cost another 140 hammers per city to build the required buildings for the two wonders to work. That'd be an investment of well over 4000 hammers - not to mention lost time - just to get back to where I was previously. Then 2metra or anyone else could just force me into a third religion, and I'd be back to square one again.

The civic/religion missions are also broken in that spies can change civic/religion without regard to the minimum wait time. So the victim could go into anarchy to switch back to their preferred civic/religion, and yet be immediately switched out of them by a spy. It is quite trivial to force a player to spend zero turns in their preferred religion/civics for the entire latter half the game by abusing the civic/religion missions.

 

[Elkad]

For me the issue isn't that the mission exists, it's the ridiculously low cost. Causing a civic or religion swap should be the same cost as inciting a revolt in every single one of the victim's cities.

 

[Lord Parkin]

For me the issue isn't that the mission exists, it's the ridiculously low cost. Causing a civic or religion swap should be the same cost as inciting a revolt in every single one of the victim's cities.

I agree - if the civic/religion missions were appropriately priced they would be fine. The problem is that they don't scale at all with the size or strength of the empire. If the cost was tied to economic damage, or even just number of cities, then it wouldn't be an issue. In the present situation it is something like a factor of 20 too cheap, and it will only get worse as the game progresses.

 

[2metraninja]

So, situation is like this: We wont change rules mid-game and CSM are far from the broken mechanism few players want to imply it is, so it is not something which is banned as a rule of thumb from each and every game.

We have two options here: either LP continues to play and takes measures against CSM/RSM (like converting everyone to his own religion, running counter-espionage, increasing his espionage output, putting spies in his cities, sponsoring an ally to switch him back etc, etc. Also teching at last alphabet, so you can have spies. Skipping a whole aspect of the game is not what Civ is meant to, right?

Or LP finds a worthy replacement and the game continues.

 

[Lord Parkin]

So, situation is like this: We wont change rules mid-game and CSM are far from the broken mechanism few players want to imply it is

Inca has invested around 6000 hammers into buildings and wonders that 200 EP can render absolutely worthless for the rest of the game. Not to mention the thousand or more destroyed promotions across the same time frame. That really seems like an appropriate mission price and effect to you?

We have two options here: either LP continues to play and takes measures against CSM/RSM

As you well know, there are no effective measures.

like converting everyone to his own religion

One player converting 3-4 opponents to Buddhism is a much more difficult task than 2-3 players converting 1 opponent to a different religion. Not to mention it would be entirely useless, as after 5 turns of being in Buddhism any one player could switch back to a different religion and instantly force the Inca out of Buddhism again. But I suspect you realise this already.

running counter-espionage

To make a mission 20-30 times underpriced only 10-15 times underpriced? Not a viable solution.

increasing his espionage output

That will not solve the problem, and only reduce Incan research even further.

putting spies in his cities

I'm sure you don't need reminding that this 1000-hammer "solution" only requires an opponent to send an extra couple of Spies to a single city in order to get around the increased fail odds. The problem of the broken mission cost is not addressed.

sponsoring an ally to switch him back

Which ally, pray tell? The one remaining neutral civ that you are currently in the process of eliminating?

Also teching at last alphabet, so you can have spies. Skipping a whole aspect of the game is not what Civ is meant to, right?

Who said that I was skipping Spies? Building them does not, however, address the problem of the broken civic/religion missions.

Or LP finds a worthy replacement and the game continues.

Funnily enough, though I have tried, I have not found anyone amongst my regular contacts who is willing to take over in a game where they know there will be at least two major opponents who have no qualms about abusing the two broken spy missions to their fullest extent for the remainder of the game.

If you can find someone who would be willing to continue playing in such an environment, then I'd be more than happy to hand over the Inca to them. Or else, you can try your hand against the softball AI if you wish.

There is of course a third option - that we make a gentleman's agreement to not resort to abusing severely broken elements of the game. Then we can all continue without further fuss. It's up to you.

 

[2metraninja]

Happy New Year all! С Новъм Годом, и так дале. Wish you health and happiness and more time and enjoyment for the Civ4 passion we all share

I wont go and answer all your statements, LP. For you they might be correct, for me they are biased at best (Like

That will not solve the problem, and only reduce Incan research even further.

So, you dont want to spend espionage to prevent being further hurt by espionage, because spending espionage will hurt you??? What a twisted perverted logic loop is this? To me it seems you simply want to remove one whole aspect of the game, namely espionage. And me and Filon seems are not OK with changing general aspect of the game mid-game. Even if it does not affects me directly, but out of principles, I am against it. Elkad took his time to invest in espionage and he sees my cities. He also stole few techs (if I am not mistaken) but this is OK, it is part of the game.

As for all the other "there is nothing to solve the espionage problem" denials, I will just post here one picture taken from recent ongoing game, where espionage is normally allowed and because of this used.

Spoiler :

To me, this picture answers all your worries and fears. Why I cant abuse civic swap mission? Because Elkad took the time and efforts investing in espionage, so he can enjoy the civics he chosen without fear that I will use the "obviously broken" Civic Swap Mission and ruin the game for him.

Enough for espionage. I am sure you cant be convinced that using espionage is OK, because you simply dont like losing. I remember once you yelled at me for loging in to play my turn, despite we were in war and I was after you in a game with only 4 hours left on the timer out of 48 or something. And you insisted on reload because I BOMBED one of your 50+ battleships and you did not missed the turn after all. So I guess it is just only your manner of playing, but I think the others have position too. I tried to mediate some some agreement for this game, where Filon agrees to not use CSM and RSM anymore so you keep playing, but he have the full right to say it is attempt to change rules mid-game. And he have 100% right on that.

I still think this game is worth playing and will ask you to field a replacement if you are resigning. If you cant, say so, I am sure there will be players around who will take a nation in leading position and play it to the end.

 

[classical_hero]

lurker's comment: As an outsider looking in, I do have to agree with LP that changing civics or religion via Espionage is broken, so as a result I would say that using it should not be allowed. It is too cheap to use for the effect it has.

 

[Caledorn]

This game has been sitting unused on my server for a month now, and I don't see the point of keeping a paused game running, eating resources that could be better used on other things.

So you guys need to figure out what to do with this game, or I'll take it down within a few days to conserve resources. An alternative is that I do an admin ruling on everyone's behalf and those who are happy with that continue, those that are not leave the game and subs can be found.

 

[2metraninja]

I would be happy to see admin ruling on that and see who plays and who is not.

 

[Bowsling]

I would keep playing, but I don't know if it's worth it to spend my time and keep the rest of you guys waiting just to manage a small civ on the verge of getting conquered by Russia.

 

[2metraninja]

You have a NAP with Russia, and Russia keeps it word.

 

[Bowsling]

Okay, about to get conquered by Russia whenever the NAP expires.

 

[Caledorn]

Right.

I lack feedback from 2 players on what they wish, and I assume that means they are no longer paying attention to this thread. If I have to do an admin ruling, my ruling would be that since there was no agreement in place before the game started that some rules or features were not allowed, it only makes sense to make mid-game rule changes if there is a majority for it. Simply put: The CSM missions stays unless the players all agree to not using them. However, by making that ruling, it is pretty certain that the game will die out.

For the time being my decision, as the host, is to shut this game down. If you can find subs for the missing players who are willing to take up the game and play using the default rules (that means CSM are allowed), I will turn the game on again.

However, considering that it's been nearly two months since the pause was initiated and there has been so little interest from the participants of the game to get the game running again it may be a better course of action to just let the game enter the annals of history. If there is any interest in starting a new pitboss, I am more than willing to host it if this game does not start up again - please make sure all the participants agree to a ruleset before the game starts though, so that this situation does not arise again.