Mulcarn vs Agares?

[Avahz Darkwood]

The way it is looking the world of Erebus is a battle between Mulcarn and Agares. Agares wants to taint creation so the One will admit the error of his works, and Mulcarn wants it all to himself. SOOO this being the case would we still consider Mulcarn as falling with Agares? It doesn't seem he has the same agenda. In fact with the new mechanic of Ice vs Hell terrain it would seem even more so...


(humm now that I think about it this should have been in the Lore section...)

 

[Ksi]

Wouldn't most of the Gods (miuns the death god (Arwan?), etc.) want to own creation? The problem is the conflict that will follow. Mulcarn is, I believe, one of, if not the weakest God. When Bhall fell the Illians realized he could enter the world without sparking godswar. This is why Sucellus was sent.

Agares is mostly like one of, if not the strongest of all. However if Auric/Mulcarn ascecends he will be stronger the second time. It seems more like all against those who break the compact than Agares vs. Mulcarn.

 

[Avahz Darkwood]

I know Mulcarn is the least "evil" of the evil gods (thanks MC), and Agares is the Strongest. Oddly enough he could be the one to actually save creation from Agares. Mulcarn is the only one that seems to want to control it for his own use. Agares basically wants it destroyed, with Hyborem being his agent bringing the age of despair.

Which would bring me to another question... Is Armageddon the end of the Age of Rebirth and the beginning of the Age of Despair? And who coined the term "Age of Despair"? (IIRC it was a Mod Moder)

 

[Ksi]

Since this is going to go in lore, I'll post a story between Agares and Mulcarn.

Twenty-one days before the rain of fire, the vision came to me. As I again laid my beloved to rest I began to see, not her cold body but the coldest reaches of Hell. Perched atop the mountain Mulyr, overlooking an eternal frozen wasteland, this throne was the highest point of Hell, in elevation though not in status. The throne was made of ice, and sat upon a smooth marble floor that ended precipitously at the mountain’s edge. Surrounding the throne was an array of statues, or so it seemed as my vision began, statues of men and of giants, with here and there an elf present.

The King on this throne was the God of Ice. In my vision, his face was obscured, but his eyes I could make out, indeed, the blue light from them illuminated the mountain top. His body was sharp and angular, and he made a rumble like an avalanche when at last he stood. Looking to the floor, he breathed out a chill wind, and a thin sheet of ice then covered the marble. My gaze turned with his as scenes from my own world played out on that ice.

Peasants called upon Sucellus to put food on their tables. Kings and Warlords used the fires of Bhall to ward off sorcerers, and those sorcerers drew on the watery powers of Danalin to quench this fire. Every scene to which we looked we saw the peoples of my world cry out to the gods in joy or hope. But the name Mulcarn was whispered only in fear, and even then rarely; it was as a ward against him that offerings were made, warm hearts of deer placed in the snow to divert his attention from human homes in the cold months. His priests were few and their converts rare. I saw this and understood it, but the King of Ice seethed against it.

“Man, what foolishness do you call wisdom! Do you not know that without my rest, the world cannot awaken with such mad energy in the spring? Do you think truly that it is from scorn that I blanket the world in snow? I was there too, when your world was weaved, and my wisdom was heeded as well as the rest. But you have turned your hearts far from me, siding with my rivals or even my allies first. Not even fear will cause you to give me true worship, Oh Man? Or perhaps more fear is needed to show you your folly!”

One last scene played our before me, from what I took to be, not the realm of man, but another of hell. Empty and vast, with but the light of dusk. Two gods here I saw, and I felt from my divine Host a well of frustration and anger towards the one, the bright Lady. Bhall, ablaze, addressed Agares, whose image to me was ever changing, from a young boy to an old man, to a withered corpse.

“Cease your lies, Agares, for my patience with you wears thin.”

“There are no lies in this place, only truth stripped bare. It is why so few deign to come here. It is not anger with which you speak to me, but uncertainty. But I say to you, is not this uncertainty itself proof of my offer? Are you allowed such freedom when you address your master?”

“I am given perfect freedom of action, within the bounds we have all agreed to.”

“Freedom of action! What is this but illusion? I offer you freedom of purpose.”

Bhall did not speak again, but appeared wavering, and then flew off quickly, disappearing from my view. Agares turned towards us, and I feared that I was discovered, but it was not to me he spoke. “It will happen, Mulcarn, she shall be mine. Be ready.”

The icy Hell began to fade from me as my vision gave way to reality. The deep laughter of the Ice King echoed throughout his hall. He turned to the statues surrounding him, and I saw now that they were not sculptures of ice, but men who had in life served Mulcarn, and giants as well. “Prepare,” he said to them, and they responded with a nod. My last sight of that realm was his army, marching down the mountainside.

Back at the side of my departed beloved, I recalled the vision. The word hung in my mind. “Prepare.” I knew I must, for if the vision was of truth, which I doubted not, the Age of Magic was at an end.

—From the Words of the Father, passed down through the Amurites, generation to generation, until the end of time

 

[Avahz Darkwood]

awesome adds a little personality to Mulcarn

 

[Corlis]

That little tidbit came from the Age of Ice mod, and it's interesting. It seems like Mulcarn's understood that the "mad energy in the spring" was a good thing, which shows a kind of appreciation of his opposite sphere, Nature. Of course, he killed Sucellus and brought on a constant winter, so he apparently didn't appreciate it enough. He does seem the most redeemable of the evil gods, which might be foreshadowed in Auric's association with Lugus and Varn Gosam. I was kind of disappointed to see in the 0.34 screenshots that he remained "Evil", but oh well.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

Based on that story, I wouldn't really want to be a servant of Mulcarn, serving him in the after life. A bit dull, I expect, at least until that point.

It seems like Mulcarn's understood that the "mad energy in the spring" was a good thing, which shows a kind of appreciation of his opposite sphere, Nature.

More like a parent telling a child that they can't have their candy if they don't eat their dinner. Man likes nature better, Mulcarn knows that but doesn't quite grasp why. Or at least thinks their tastes loopsided.
I think we probably have stories of human redemption, but for gods it would seem a fall is one way.

Auric isn't entirely the same as Mulcarn, though the exact relationship is undefined. (I'll be looking forward with you to Kael's scenarios.) It is concievable that he would take the Illians in a slightly different direction, but that isn't the case.

As for disagreement between Agares and Mulcarn, I'm sure it is considerable. In fact I expect each evil god has their own vision of what they should be doing, but they all agree that it isn't what they have been commanded to do, and so they must aid each other, to an extent, within the bounds of the compact so as to not destroy creation. If they somehow succeeded in destroying the good angels and/or the One, they would likely split into factions among themselves and fight for their own visions. This is impossible, I expect, and they probably know it, but they have made their choices and probably are not able to turn back.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Mulcarn was the least evil of the evil gods. I'm sure you just mistyped, but I don't want anyone to get the impression that Sirona is more evil than him (although at times I think Junil is).

The Age of Despair was proposed by Moon Hunter.



Although Mulcarn had conspired with Agares to make Bhall fall and to open up an opportunity for him to enter creation unopposed, I believe that Kael has said that his nature is still strongly opposed to Bhall. Now that Bhall is closely aligned with Agares, his relationship with the King of Hope is now quite strained.



I was thinking it would be nice for Auric to start neutral, but become Evil when he approaches godhood--which he could decide not to do if he comes to value his humanity more than power. Lorewise, it might even make sense for him to be good early on, or at least closer to good than evil in Broader Alignment Fall Further games. Auric was a good boy, but Kael has said that being linked to a precept would destroy most of his personality irreparably.



I've long thought it would be a very interesting scenario for Auric to be confronted by either a Luonnatar or by Nemed (I tend to think he was involved in their founding), who tries to convince him that loosing his godhood was a great blessing. Humanity is greater than the gods, because only the divine spark which is unencumbered by being an avatar of a precept and imbued with equal quantities of every element has true free will. He would insist that when The One took away the power of creation he was not acting out of pride or disrespect for his children, but out of pure love. He wanted them to show they loved him by offering more than was asked, by giving up their precepts. It was always his intention for his children have the "freedom of purpose" Agares thought they had to fight for, but he knows that this freedom cannot truly be obtained by those so enslaved to their own natures. Since Auric already lost that which his rebellion had intended to protect, he has essentially done penitence and is the closest of the gods to redemption, closer than any of the good gods. If he but chooses to accept his current state he will be rewarded with greater joy in this life than his last, and he will have a place of honor in the world to come when The One returns in judgment. He is the prodigal son whose return pleases his father (The One) more than the loyal but ungrateful service of his brothers (especially Junil). Moreover, he is in a unique position to be a witness to the gods, to bring them to repentance and Erebus into the Age of Enlightenment.

I'd say that there is about a 99% chance that he would refuse and kill the messenger (assuming it isn't Nemed, or that the Godslayer would work on a god who abdicated his precept long before the Compact was signed), but if he repents and embraces humanity and The One he would become a champion of good like the world has never seen.

 

[Annex]

Is there any lore which specifically tells the story of Junil engaging in evil undertakings or being ungrateful to The One? I always thought that Junil and Sabathiel were basically as good as any of the good gods, and that it was just his servants on Erebus who twisted Junil's commands.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Junil is of course extremely legalistic. He cares more about following rules than doing what is really right. He is shown a having a strong dislike for some of the rules he is bound to uphold (including the compact), although this would not stop him from upholding them. I don't know of any overtly evil acts he performed, but the eldest of the gods does strike me as ungrateful and self righteous. (The elder brother in the parable of the prodigal son hadn't done any evil acts either, his sin was but pride and a hardness of the heart towards his repentant brother that fit Junil very well.) The evil deeds of the corrupted Bannor do stem from the weaknesses of the sphere to which they are so close, and, as the manifestation of the sphere, Junil suffers from these character flaws as well, even though the god can keep them in check better than they can.


Junil is certainly the most anti-evil god, but not the most good. I tend to agree with Cassiel that there is little difference between the extremes. It is also worth noting that The One tasked the angels still loyal to him with protecting creation and guiding it toward enlightenment until the day he returned, he did not task them with fighting their brethren. Often fighting evil is necessary in working towards this goal, but fighting evil for the sake of fighting evil is detrimental to their real purpose, as is the notion of Unquestioning Obedience. Remember, when The One withdrew from Creation nothing existed that would still exist without Agares taint; this means that Agares' corruption had touched become an integral part of even the most good of the gods. It should also be noted that while Cassiel hates Junil, Sabathiel is pretty much his best friend. They were extremely close before the Compact, as Law is the sphere closest to Force. They are still friends now and although they disagree on almost every issue they still respect each other greatly. The diligent Sabathiel is much more good than his meticulous master, and much more concerned with personally defending the innocent than with waging war on the wicked by proxy. (While they have very similar meanings and effects, etymologically diligence is following the rules and trying to do good out of love, while meticulousness is doing the same out of fear. I think these are among the most defining characteristics of Sabathiel and Junil, receptively.)


I consider Sirona as being the most good of the gods by far, followed by Lugus. Although the laws of the Bannor provide protection for the followers of these gods (I suspect Sabathiel may have created such laws without consulting Junil), Junil does not like them. He doesn't like people thinking for themselves to determine right from wrong (Lugus) or showing any mercy to those who have sinned (Sirona). Kael has stated that he hates Sirona. I believe that any hatred displeases The One, and that The One wants his creations to act out of Love, not Fear as the Junil does.

 

[Annex]

Thanks for the answer Magister

The story of the prodigal son works perfectly here, then. Its strange how Junils archangel is so very different. But then again, I guess the same could be said for Bhall and Brigit.

 

[Corlis]

More like a parent telling a child that they can't have their candy if they don't eat their dinner. Man likes nature better, Mulcarn knows that but doesn't quite grasp why. Or at least thinks their tastes loopsided.

I think we probably have stories of human redemption, but for gods it would seem a fall is one way.

OTOH, I believe that someone's mentioned that since Sirona was the closes to Agares before his fall, she still holds out hope for his redemption, which suggests that gods can rise again. Of course, she could easily be wrong; excessive idealism is probably her biggest fault.

@MC: In the Bannor-gone-wicked futures, isn't it the case that the Bannor have essentially stopped actually following Junil and begun serving someone else, even unknowingly? I remember reading part of the story of Saverous where he and Valin are in a tavern and are accosted by one of Valin's colleagues. She's turns out to be under the influence of some sort of demon but Valin is being backed by an angel of Junil. But of course, if angels are acting at cross-purposes to their gods then maybe Junil wouldn't approve.

In any case, I think it's the nature of the gods to take their spheres to extremes, isn't it? It was certainly necessary for the Bannor to have unquestioning obedience in Hell, or they would have fallen. Of course, choosing to obey your superior because you trust him to guide you properly is one thing, but being forced to obey him through magic is quite another. A lowercase-g good society would only use UO in extreme situations for limited periods, much like we'd use martial law.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

It has been states that he hates Sirona

hmm, any source for that, I don't recall it.

 

[Corlis]

hmm, any source for that, I don't recall it.

That would be from the Mana Definitions thread. Quoth Kael:

Yeah, Sirona and Junil don't get along.

"Hate" is probably colloquial here; they don't mean each other any harm, but they're not inviting each other to their birthday parties.

(Hmm, it seems that's also where I got the idea that Sirona thinks Agares can be redeemed, though it doesn't sound like most of the gods agree with her.)

 

[Kael]

I don't recall that either, there is no love lost between Junil and Nantosuelta's archangel Splendor (or more correctly Splendor loves antagonizing Junil and his angels) and is frequently dissapointed that Nantosuelta allows Splendor free reign to do whatever he wants. And just as MC said Junil thinks Sirona is very weak and of little help in the war, maybe even worried that attempts to redeem Agares may lead her to siding with him, but I dont think he hates her.

There is an intentional difference between the gods and their archangels. You would think one would be a weaker version of the other, and avatar to act out their masters plans. But where the gods are the embodiment of their dominions the archangels are more human versions of them. Just how much the god controls the dominion or he dominion controls the god is always an interesting question to consider. But no one doubts that the archangels aren't bound by any such restrictions and may pursue their interestes in any way they choose.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Sirona firmly believes that fallen gods can rise again, but most of gods think she is crazy. They tend to ignore their little sister. I like to think she is right, but that they must forfeit their godhood in order to be redeemed.


Yes, the fallen Bannor have stopped following Junil and been lead astray by demons. I am of the opinion that Mammon is the strongest in their hearts now. The high priests now listed only to the whispers of the King of Avarice, and perhaps their peers in the Stewards of Inequity. Most of the Bannor strongly believe they are following Junil instead of Mammon, because Mammon prefers to be worshiped by those who have no idea they are following him. Nevertheless, their nature is still strongly influence by the precept of Law, just as their old precept of Fire still lived on in their hearts and drove their crusades.


I don't tend to think of the Tale of Saverous as being entirely cannon. It is probably closer that many of his D&D campaigns, but there are key differences. The Burnt Priest that held Saverous in his service isn't exactly the same as the cult of the overlords. I think it is important to note that in the Tale of Saverous Junil is described as being the God of Light and Justice. Also, "Bannor" means "Sons of Light." I am of the opinion that at this point Junil and Lugus were the same being in Kael's mind, and that the the true followers of Junil were really closer to the Empyrean than to the Order. I think that Kael decided to change this in FfH to introduce more character flaws to make this a deeper and darker dark fantasy.

 

[Mailbox]

What about Taranis the Unchanging? He seems pretty inhuman.

Actually, it would seem that Mulcarn is the more "human" of the two because he reacts to events and holds strong emotions towards the humans who never chose to worship him except occasionally out of fear.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

Yes, the fallen Bannor have stopped following Junil and been lead astray by demons.

As of when? This is certainly a possible future, but is it canon? I don't think there really is a canon for the age of rebirth, at least not one that far out. Most of the age of rebirth details are designed to work within whatever may be going on in the player's game world, afaik.

 

[Kael]

I don't tend to think of the Tale of Saverous as being entirely cannon. It is probably closer that many of his D&D campaigns, but there are key differences. The Burnt Priest that held Saverous in his service isn't exactly the same as the cult of the overlords. I think it is important to note that in the Tale of Saverous Junil is described as being the God of Light and Justice. Also, "Bannor" means "Sons of Light." I am of the opinion that at this point Junil and Lugus were the same being in Kael's mind, and that the the true followers of Junil were really closer to the Empyrean than to the Order. I think that Kael decided to change this in FfH to introduce more character flaws to make this a deeper and darker dark fantasy.

Junil and Lugus were always seperate that I can remember. But your right abotu the Tale of Saverous. It was written a long time ago, well before I started on FfH so its just another D&D campaign resource, not FfH canon. Heck, according to that story Saverous is grey.

 

[Kael]

Is there any lore which specifically tells the story of Junil engaging in evil undertakings or being ungrateful to The One? I always thought that Junil and Sabathiel were basically as good as any of the good gods, and that it was just his servants on Erebus who twisted Junil's commands.

There usually some confusion about the Bannor and Junil. The Bannor are the ones who fell, not their god. Junil did not abandon them, they abandoned him. He was just to legalistic (to use MC's term) to step in and fix the problem.

Sabathiel is probably as good as you are going to get in the FfH world. He has been the hero, remained pure and shown both strength, sacrifice and compassion. Those rarely come together in Erebus. Cassiel may be willing to sacrifice but he doesnt have much compassion, Ethne may be very compassionate but she doesnt have strength. The fact that Sabathiel's nature is wasted, that his virtue is traded for the reigns of power and greed is tragic.