Multiplayer CHEATERS!?

I've played <snip> a few times and never got the chance to finish him off because he rage quit before that. He also likes to talk smack all game and never backs it up.

Moderator Action: I really was serious it when I stated that this would not be allowed.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

He accused me of cheating when I rolled him with swordsmen around turn 40. It's not that hard to do if you know how - no cheating required. :p
 
Deeival said:
I've played <snip> a few times and never got the chance to finish him off because he rage quit before that. He also likes to talk smack all game and never backs it up.

Moderator Action: I really was serious it when I stated that this would not be allowed.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

He accused me of cheating when I rolled him with swordsmen around turn 40. It's not that hard to do if you know how - no cheating required. :p
Click to expand...

I can do it on turn 40 too. But we're talking turn 30 and a lot of swordpower... but that aside, I suppose the source is also of question based on your enlightenment.
 
beeline iron working takes 160? beakers

So 5 turns of 4beakers/turn = 20
Attempt 1:

warrior-warrior-warrior-settler w/ 2F1H square
8 turns of 5 beakers/turn = 60
17 turns of 6 beakers/turn = 162.
1 warrior takes 27? hammers

9 turns making settler
15-18 turns of 5 hammer/turn for 3 extra warriors

This cost is less than 27 turns. Place 2nd city on top of iron , upgrade, attack with 4 swordsmen.
Probably turn 34 to build city on top of iron, so turn 35 rush. Apparently we need an improvement.



Attempt 2:
Let's try warrior-settler-warrior-warrior-settler with 1 2F/1H square

So 5 turns of 4beakers/turn = 20
Turn 6= 2nd warrior done in capital.
Turn 15 = settler done

Turn 15= total beakers = 20 + 50 = 70.

Turn 17 city placed. Total beakers = 80.
Turn 21 3rd warrior done in capital
Turn 22 2nd city size 2. Total beakers = 117
Turn 23 cap grows to size 3 Total beakers = 125
Turn 27 4th warrior done in capital
Turn 28 Total beakers = 165.
Turn 30 2nd settler settles on top of iron, upgrade 4 warriors to swordsmen, must have accumulated 240 gold (not too difficult by turn 30).


Note that this is done without including: cultural policies (tradition or liberty), pop huts, tech huts, culture huts
Note that this requires: 240 gold @ turn 30.
Note that production of a scout is also easily added.
Note that 2nd city does not produce anything in 13 turns (likely finish a warrior if wanted for 5 swordsmen rush?)
 
Smote said:
beeline iron working takes 160? beakers

So 5 turns of 4beakers/turn = 20
Attempt 1:

warrior-warrior-warrior-settler w/ 2F1H square
8 turns of 5 beakers/turn = 60
17 turns of 6 beakers/turn = 162.
1 warrior takes 27? hammers

9 turns making settler
15-18 turns of 5 hammer/turn for 3 extra warriors

This cost is less than 27 turns. Place 2nd city on top of iron , upgrade, attack with 4 swordsmen.
Probably turn 34 to build city on top of iron, so turn 35 rush. Apparently we need an improvement.



Attempt 2:
Let's try warrior-settler-warrior-warrior-settler with 1 2F/1H square

So 5 turns of 4beakers/turn = 20
Turn 6= 2nd warrior done in capital.
Turn 15 = settler done

Turn 15= total beakers = 20 + 50 = 70.

Turn 17 city placed. Total beakers = 80.
Turn 21 3rd warrior done in capital
Turn 22 2nd city size 2. Total beakers = 117
Turn 23 cap grows to size 3 Total beakers = 125
Turn 27 4th warrior done in capital
Turn 28 Total beakers = 165.
Turn 30 2nd settler settles on top of iron, upgrade 4 warriors to swordsmen, must have accumulated 240 gold (not too difficult by turn 30).


Note that this is done without including: cultural policies (tradition or liberty), pop huts, tech huts, culture huts
Note that this requires: 240 gold @ turn 30.
Note that production of a scout is also easily added.
Note that 2nd city does not produce anything in 13 turns (likely finish a warrior if wanted for 5 swordsmen rush?)
Click to expand...

Nice analysis. I play tested both your scenarios and wasn't able to duplicate either of them in the time you did. *BUT* in your first scenario I did get it on turn 42, and in your second I got it on turn 39... so yeah, it is possible (but a lot of factors need to fall in place just right for it to work).

The scout did slow down the production, but he was necessary to get huts. I did indeed have enough gold in attempt 2, but not in attempt 1. This was due primarily to the additional money from the early city. Still only 4 swordsmen, not 5. But that was pretty nice.

On a side note though, even though I *did* have enough gold to upgrade in the second scenario, I didn't have an iron pile close enough to build on. I continued the experiment though as if I did, just to check it. So that will always be another variable. Likewise, in scenario 1, I only had 2 iron, not a 6-pile, so I would have only been able to upgrade 2 (didn't have enough gold for 4 anyway though, so kind of a moot point).

Either way, looks like it *is* possible, but a lot of factors need to align for it to work.

Thanks for the analysis and for the insight Smote.
 
swordspider said:
Nice analysis. I play tested both your scenarios and wasn't able to duplicate either of them in the time you did. *BUT* in your first scenario I did get it on turn 42, and in your second I got it on turn 39... so yeah, it is possible (but a lot of factors need to fall in place just right for it to work).

The scout did slow down the production, but he was necessary to get huts. I did indeed have enough gold in attempt 2, but not in attempt 1. This was due primarily to the additional money from the early city. Still only 4 swordsmen, not 5. But that was pretty nice.

On a side note though, even though I *did* have enough gold to upgrade in the second scenario, I didn't have an iron pile close enough to build on. I continued the experiment though as if I did, just to check it. So that will always be another variable. Likewise, in scenario 1, I only had 2 iron, not a 6-pile, so I would have only been able to upgrade 2 (didn't have enough gold for 4 anyway though, so kind of a moot point).

Either way, looks like it *is* possible, but a lot of factors need to align for it to work.

Thanks for the analysis and for the insight Smote.
Click to expand...


It is certainly easily doable with some factors (tech ruin mining or bronze working, or pop ruin). It is certainly more doable with culture ruin + liberty, gold ruin, or to a lesser extend tradition.


Tech order: Beeline iron working
Policy order: OFF
Civ: Ottoman
Ruins: OFF
City state: NORMAL (Discovering city state is needed to get 240 gold)

Numbers I'm using:

Exact hammer cost of warrior (quick setting) = 26
Exact hammer cost of scout (quick setting) = 16
Exact hammer cost of settler (quick setting) = 60 (??)
Exact food cost (size 1->2) (quick setting) = 10
Exact food cost (size 2->3) (quick setting) = 16 (??)
Exact beaker cost (mining) (quick setting) = 23 (??)
Exact beaker cost (bronze working) (quick setting) = 36 (??)
Exact beaker cost (iron working) (quick setting) = 100 (??)

Game rules I'm using:
Production overflow between units
Tech overflow between techs

Assume capital: NO 2/1 hex, NO 3/0 hex, 2 2/0 hexes, 1 0/2 hex
Assume 2nd city: NO 2/1 hex, NO 3/0 hex, 1 2/0 hex, 1 0/2 hex

Turn 0:
Nation: Current Tech: Mining -- Progress: 0/23
Capital: Current Production: Scout. Hammers: 0/16

Turn 1:
Nation: Current Tech: Mining -- Progress: 4/23
Capital: Current Production: Scout. Hammers: 4/16

Turn 2:
Nation: Current Tech: Mining -- Progress: 8/23
Capital: Current Production: Scout. Hammers: 8/16

Turn 3:
Nation: Current Tech: Mining -- Progress: 12/23
Capital: Current Production: Scout. Hammers: 12/16

Turn 4:
Nation: Current Tech: Mining -- Progress: 16/23. SCOUT complete.
Capital: Current Production: Warrior. Hammers: 0/26

Turn 5:
Nation: Current Tech: Mining -- Progress: 21/23. POP GROWTH in capital.
Capital: Current Production: Settler. Hammers: 0/60

Turn 6:
Nation: Current Tech: Bronze Working -- Progress: 3/36.
Capital: Current Production: Settler. Hammers: 6/60

Turn 7:
Nation: Current Tech: Bronze Working -- Progress: 8/36.
Capital: Current Production: Settler. Hammers: 12/60

Turn 8:
Nation: Current Tech: Bronze Working -- Progress: 13/36.
Capital: Current Production: Settler. Hammers: 18/60

Turn 9:
Nation: Current Tech: Bronze Working -- Progress: 18/36.
Capital: Current Production: Settler. Hammers: 24/60

Turn 10:
Nation: Current Tech: Bronze Working -- Progress: 23/36.
Capital: Current Production: Settler. Hammers: 30/60

Turn 11:
Nation: Current Tech: Bronze Working -- Progress: 28/36.
Capital: Current Production: Settler. Hammers: 36/60

Turn 12:
Nation: Current Tech: Bronze Working -- Progress: 33/36.
Capital: Current Production: Settler. Hammers: 42/60

Turn 13:
Nation: Current Tech: Iron Working -- Progress: 2/100.
Capital: Current Production: Settler. Hammers: 48/60

Turn 14:
Nation: Current Tech: Iron Working -- Progress: 7/100.
Capital: Current Production: Settler. Hammers: 54/60

Turn 15:
Nation: Current Tech: Iron Working -- Progress: 12/100. SETTLER complete
Capital: Current Production: Warrior. Hammers: 4/26 [production saved]

Turn 16:
Nation: Current Tech: Iron Working -- Progress: 17/100.
Capital: Current Production: Warrior. Hammers: 8/26

Turn 17:
Nation: Current Tech: Iron Working -- Progress: 22/100.
Capital: Current Production: Warrior. Hammers: 12/26

Turn 18:
Nation: Current Tech: Iron Working -- Progress: 27/100. City 2 FOUNDED
Capital: Current Production: Warrior. Hammers: 16/26

Turn 19:
Nation: Current Tech: Iron Working -- Progress: 32/100.
Capital: Current Production: Warrior. Hammers: 20/26
City 2: Current Production: Warrior. Hammers: 0/26

Turn 20:
Nation: Current Tech: Iron Working -- Progress: 38/100.
Capital: Current Production: Warrior. Hammers: 24/26
City 2: Current Production: Warrior. Hammers: 2/26

Turn 21:
Nation: Current Tech: Iron Working -- Progress: 44/100. WARRIOR created
Capital: Current Production: Warrior. Hammers: 2/26
City 2: Current Production: Warrior. Hammers: 4/26

Turn 22:
Nation: Current Tech: Iron Working -- Progress: 50/100.
Capital: Current Production: Warrior. Hammers: 6/26
City 2: Current Production: Warrior. Hammers: 6/26

Turn 23:
Nation: Current Tech: Iron Working -- Progress: 58/100.

POP GROWTH in capital. POP GROWTH in 2nd city. Each city now using 1 0/2 tile (unimproved hill) [can do this between turns by using production focus + locked squares]

Capital: Current Production: Warrior. Hammers: 12/26
City 2: Current Production: Warrior. Hammers: 10/26

Turn 24:
Nation: Current Tech: Iron Working -- Progress: 66/100.
Capital: Current Production: Warrior. Hammers: 18/26
City 2: Current Production: Warrior. Hammers: 14/26

Turn 25:
Nation: Current Tech: Iron Working -- Progress: 74/100.
Capital: Current Production: Warrior. Hammers: 24/26
City 2: Current Production: Warrior. Hammers: 18/26

Turn 26:
Nation: Current Tech: Iron Working -- Progress: 82/100. WARRIOR created
Capital: Current Production: Settler. Hammers: 2/60
City 2: Current Production: Warrior. Hammers: 22/26

Turn 36:
SETTLER created

Turn 38 Iron colonized


Obviously, this is not fast enough. However, this is the MINIMUM start (no tile advantages at all!) and no liberty. Now, lets do a MINIMUM start with liberty policy turn 15 [2nd settler is bottleneck]

Same, up to
Turn 34:
SETTLER created

Turn 36: Iron colonized

Now, lets do a MINIMUM start with tradition policy turn 15

Pop growth in capital occurs turn 21.
Turn 35:
SETTLER created
Turn 37: Iron colonized

Obviously, its apparent we cannot do a 30 turn sword-rush with a minimum start. Let's add a single 2/1 square to capital [average start].

Turn 0:
Nation: Current Tech: Mining -- Progress: 0/23
Capital: Current Production: Scout. Hammers: 0/16

Turn 1:
Nation: Current Tech: Mining -- Progress: 4/23
Capital: Current Production: Scout. Hammers: 5/16

Turn 2:
Nation: Current Tech: Mining -- Progress: 8/23
Capital: Current Production: Scout. Hammers: 10/16

Turn 3:
Nation: Current Tech: Mining -- Progress: 12/23
Capital: Current Production: Scout. Hammers: 15/16

Turn 4:
Nation: Current Tech: Mining -- Progress: 16/23. SCOUT complete.
Capital: Current Production: Warrior. Hammers: 4/26

Turn 5:
Nation: Current Tech: Mining -- Progress: 21/23. POP GROWTH in capital.
Capital: Current Production: Settler. Hammers: 0/60

Turn 6:
Nation: Current Tech: Bronze Working -- Progress: 3/36.
Capital: Current Production: Settler. Hammers: 7/60

Turn 7:
Nation: Current Tech: Bronze Working -- Progress: 8/36.
Capital: Current Production: Settler. Hammers: 14/60

Turn 8:
Nation: Current Tech: Bronze Working -- Progress: 13/36.
Capital: Current Production: Settler. Hammers: 21/60

Turn 9:
Nation: Current Tech: Bronze Working -- Progress: 18/36.
Capital: Current Production: Settler. Hammers: 28/60

Turn 10:
Nation: Current Tech: Bronze Working -- Progress: 23/36.
Capital: Current Production: Settler. Hammers: 35/60

Turn 11:
Nation: Current Tech: Bronze Working -- Progress: 28/36.
Capital: Current Production: Settler. Hammers: 42/60

Turn 12:
Nation: Current Tech: Bronze Working -- Progress: 33/36.
Capital: Current Production: Settler. Hammers: 49/60

Turn 13:
Nation: Current Tech: Iron Working -- Progress: 2/100.
Capital: Current Production: Settler. Hammers: 56/60

Turn 14:
Nation: Current Tech: Iron Working -- Progress: 7/100. SETTLER complete
Capital: Current Production: Warrior. Hammers: 12/26 [production saved+overflow (assuming prod overflows- haven't checked)]

Turn 15:
Nation: Current Tech: Iron Working -- Progress: 12/100.
Capital: Current Production: Warrior. Hammers: 17/26

Turn 16:
Nation: Current Tech: Iron Working -- Progress: 17/100.
Capital: Current Production: Warrior. Hammers: 24/26

Turn 17:
Nation: Current Tech: Iron Working -- Progress: 22/100. WARRIOR complete. City 2 FOUNDED
Capital: Current Production: Warrior. Hammers: 3/26
City 2: Current Production: Warrior. Hammers: 0/26

Turn 18:
Nation: Current Tech: Iron Working -- Progress: 28/100.
Capital: Current Production: Warrior. Hammers: 8/26
City 2: Current Production: Warrior. Hammers: 2/26


Turn 19:
Nation: Current Tech: Iron Working -- Progress: 34/100.
Capital: Current Production: Warrior. Hammers: 13/26
City 2: Current Production: Warrior. Hammers: 4/26

Turn 20:
Nation: Current Tech: Iron Working -- Progress: 40/100.
Capital: Current Production: Warrior. Hammers: 18/26
City 2: Current Production: Warrior. Hammers: 6/26

Turn 21:
Nation: Current Tech: Iron Working -- Progress: 46/100.
Capital: Current Production: Warrior. Hammers: 25/26
City 2: Current Production: Warrior. Hammers: 8/26

Turn 22:
Nation: Current Tech: Iron Working -- Progress: 54/100. WARRIOR complete POP GROWTH in capital + 2nd city. Both now using HILLS. [can do this between turns by using production focus + locked squares]

Capital: Current Production: Settler. Hammers: 6/60
City 2: Current Production: Warrior. Hammers: 12/26

Turn 23:
Nation: Current Tech: Iron Working -- Progress: 62/100.
Capital: Current Production: Settler. Hammers: 13/60
City 2: Current Production: Warrior. Hammers: 16/26

Turn 24:
Nation: Current Tech: Iron Working -- Progress: 70/100.
Capital: Current Production: Settler. Hammers: 20/60
City 2: Current Production: Warrior. Hammers: 20/26

Turn 25:
Nation: Current Tech: Iron Working -- Progress: 78/100.
Capital: Current Production: Settler. Hammers: 27/60
City 2: Current Production: Warrior. Hammers: 24/26

Turn 26:
Nation: Current Tech: Iron Working -- Progress: 86/100. WARRIOR created in 2nd city.
Capital: Current Production: Settler. Hammers: 34/60

Turn 27:
Nation: Current Tech: Iron Working -- Progress: 86/100.
Capital: Current Production: Settler. Hammers: 41/60

Turn 28:
Nation: Current Tech: Iron Working -- Progress: 94/100. .
Capital: Current Production: Settler. Hammers: 48/60

Turn 29:
Nation: IRON WORKING invented.
Capital: Current Production: Settler. Hammers: 55/60

Turn 30: SETTLER created.

Turn 32: Iron Settled. Upgrade 4 warriors (also have scout).

Note: This requires 240 gold @ turn 30, via ruins, tiles, and city state discoveries. If any AI are discovered, this can also be gained via open border selling.

This is disappointing. Let's add in liberty.

Turn 23:
Nation: Current Tech: Iron Working -- Progress: 62/100.
Capital: Current Production: Settler. Hammers: 16/60
City 2: Current Production: Warrior. Hammers: 16/26

Turn 28:
SETTLER created.
Turn 30: Iron Settled. Upgrade 4 warriors (also have scout).
 
Getting an early pop 4 capital accelerate the rush as well. I made a 31 turn rush in on of my tests. I did get a hut with a free pop tho. Nothing else.

In another one i managed to get IW by turn 28 with another 4 pop capital with an early 2nd city who had time to reach pop2 in 4 turns. 3rd city settled iron on turn 30 but i had only 3 warriors and enough gold to upgrade 2 of them.

I can conclude that a 30 turns rush is doable (with 4 swords) but in some conditions only. A good average of successful rushes is more around turn 40. But, at turn 40, if the opponent didn't rush horsemen or swords he has high chances to struggle a lot unless he got a fantastic choke point.

Some maps smell for an iron rush and some others really not.
 
Now, just for fun, lets do 1 more analysis. This one will be for FRANCE, with 2 3/0 hexes and a 0/2 hex


Turn 0:
Nation: Current Tech: Mining -- Progress: 0/23
Capital: Current Production: Scout. Hammers: 0/16

Turn 1:
Nation: Current Tech: Mining -- Progress: 4/23
Capital: Current Production: Scout. Hammers: 4/16

Turn 2:
Nation: Current Tech: Mining -- Progress: 8/23
Capital: Current Production: Scout. Hammers: 8/16

Turn 3:
Nation: Current Tech: Mining -- Progress: 12/23
Capital: Current Production: Scout. Hammers: 12/16

Turn 4:
Nation: Current Tech: Mining -- Progress: 17/23 POP GROWTH IN CAPITAL. SCOUT COMPLETE.
Capital: Current Production: Settler. Hammers: 0/60

Turn 5:
Nation: Current Tech: Mining -- Progress: 22/23 POLICY: LIBERTY chosen
Capital: Current Production: Settler. Hammers: 8/60

Turn 5:
Nation: Current Tech: Bronze Working -- Progress: 4/36
Capital: Current Production: Settler. Hammers: 20/60

Turn 6:
Nation: Current Tech: Bronze Working -- Progress: 9/36
Capital: Current Production: Settler. Hammers: 32/60

Turn 7:
Nation: Current Tech: Bronze Working -- Progress: 14/36
Capital: Current Production: Settler. Hammers: 44/60

Turn 8:
Nation: Current Tech: Bronze Working -- Progress: 19/36
Capital: Current Production: Settler. Hammers: 56/60

Turn 9:
Nation: Current Tech: Bronze Working -- Progress: 24/36 SETTLER created
Capital: Current Production: Settler. Hammers: 6/60

Turn 10:
Nation: Current Tech: Bronze Working -- Progress: 29/36
Capital: Current Production: Settler. Hammers: 18/60

Turn 11:
Nation: Current Tech: Bronze Working -- Progress: 34/36 2nd City SETTLED- using 3/0 hex

Capital: Current Production: Settler. Hammers: 30/60
2nd City: Current Production: Warrior. Hammers: 0/26

Turn 11:
Nation: Current Tech: Iron Working -- Progress: 4/100
Capital: Current Production: Settler. Hammers: 42/60
2nd City: Current Production: Warrior. Hammers: 2/26

Turn 12:
Nation: Current Tech: Iron Working -- Progress: 10/100
Capital: Current Production: Settler. Hammers: 54/60
2nd City: Current Production: Warrior. Hammers: 4/26

Turn 13:
Nation: Current Tech: Iron Working -- Progress: 16/100 SETTLER created.
Capital: Current Production: Warrior. Hammers: 6/26
2nd City: Current Production: Warrior. Hammers: 6/26

Turn 14:
Nation: Current Tech: Iron Working -- Progress: 23/100 2nd city GROW, now using HILL.
Capital: Current Production: Warrior. Hammers: 10/26
2nd City: Current Production: Warrior. Hammers: 10/26

Turn 15:
Nation: Current Tech: Iron Working -- Progress: 30/100
Capital: Current Production: Warrior. Hammers: 14/26
2nd City: Current Production: Warrior. Hammers: 14/26

Turn 16:
Nation: Current Tech: Iron Working -- Progress: 37/100
Capital: Current Production: Warrior. Hammers: 18/26
2nd City: Current Production: Warrior. Hammers: 18/26

Turn 17:
Nation: Current Tech: Iron Working -- Progress: 45/100 CAPITAL GROW, now using HILL
Capital: Current Production: Warrior. Hammers: 24/26
2nd City: Current Production: Warrior. Hammers: 22/26

Turn 18:
Nation: Current Tech: Iron Working -- Progress: 53/100 3rd City founded NEAR opponent (for upgrading to swords- using hill) 2x Warrior created
Capital: Current Production: Settler. Hammers: 4/60
2nd City: Current Production: Warrior. Hammers: 0/26
3rd City: Current Production: Warrior. Hammers: 0/26

Turn 19:
Nation: Current Tech: Iron Working -- Progress: 62/100
Capital: Current Production: Settler. Hammers: 16/60
2nd City: Current Production: Warrior. Hammers: 4/26
3rd City: Current Production: Warrior. Hammers: 4/26

Turn 20:
Nation: Current Tech: Iron Working -- Progress: 71/100
Capital: Current Production: Settler. Hammers: 28/60
2nd City: Current Production: Warrior. Hammers: 8/26
3rd City: Current Production: Warrior. Hammers: 8/26

Turn 21:
Nation: Current Tech: Iron Working -- Progress: 80/100
Capital: Current Production: Settler. Hammers: 40/60
2nd City: Current Production: Warrior. Hammers: 12/26
3rd City: Current Production: Warrior. Hammers: 12/26

Turn 22:
Nation: Current Tech: Iron Working -- Progress: 89/100
Capital: Current Production: Settler. Hammers: 52/60
2nd City: Current Production: Warrior. Hammers: 16/26
3rd City: Current Production: Warrior. Hammers: 16/26

Turn 23:
Nation: Current Tech: Iron Working -- Progress: 98/100
Capital: Current Production: Settler. Hammers: 52/60
2nd City: Current Production: Warrior. Hammers: 16/26
3rd City: Current Production: Warrior. Hammers: 16/26

Turn 24:
Iron working done. SETTLER done.
2nd City: Current Production: Warrior. Hammers: 20/26
3rd City: Current Production: Warrior. Hammers: 20/26

Turn 25:
2nd City: Current Production: Warrior. Hammers: 24/26
3rd City: Current Production: Warrior. Hammers: 24/26

Turn 26: 2x Warrior done. 1 Warrior located at 2nd city, 4 Warriors at 3rd city. Settler founds 4th city on Iron. 4x Warrior upgrade. Turn 27-29 attack/kill enemy capital with 4 swordsmen.

Note this requires ~240 gold @turn 26.

I claim no further optimization is possible without lucky ancient ruins or El Dorado or super-early worker steal from high-level AI/player or AI luxury for gold trading coupled with unit purchasing. Great Library/tradition/aristocracy builds to do a "Mini Sword rush" are about the same speed, but for 2 swords and with a much smaller base.
 
Nicely done.

The opportunity cost seems high. You don't want to get dowed by another civ with such expansion. You are stuck with pop1 cities working mines and no gold. Unless you manually change them and dropping their production. Still, they are not growing. First worker come very late.

Waiting for only 3 cities and 6-8 turns later and mostly with more money put this strategy on a lower standing.

Settling on a happy mine with 2nd or 3rd city surely helps a lot this approach.
 
Tabarnak said:
Nicely done.

The opportunity cost seems high. You don't want to get dowed by another civ with such expansion. You are stuck with pop1 cities working mines and no gold. Unless you manually change them and dropping their production. Still, they are not growing. First worker come very late.

Waiting for only 3 cities and 6-8 turns later and mostly with more money put this strategy on a lower standing.

Settling on a happy mine with 2nd or 3rd city surely helps a lot this approach.
Click to expand...

Yeah, settling on luxury is crucial to economic success after sword rush, though it makes no difference for the speed of the sword rush itself.

You will most likely capture a worker or 2 anyways, unless the civ you invade disbands it out of spite. :lol: After sword rush, best approach is to make 3 workers, tech to library, and NC, then beeline steel and continue invasion. Throw luxury tech in there first if it seems better/more synchronized. Use swordsmen to continue conquering new puppets/new luxuries/conquering gold (maybe go for city states next). Maybe use this new conquering gold to upgrades swords -> longswords.

I will have to try some retardedly fast sword rushes online to see how they do :). The 240 gold seems the hardest part. Its easy with AIs, since you can sell them open borders, or a luxury you settle on. Its hard to find the 6-7 CS or work profitable tiles or find gold ruin (or combination).
 
Hmm, considering I'd never play multiplayer matches with a) AI players other than City-States, because the AIs are notoriously bad, b) ancient ruins, due to the fact they are random. I'd remove that stupid El Dorado as well if it were possible.

So seems like it's possible, but very unlikely. Finding El Dorado would easily save a few turns, I guess. Buying a settler instead of building one saves quite a lot of turns.

Oh, and this does bring out the question whether the initial game swordspider mentioned was post-patch when El Dorado was available.
 
Just wanted to put a small sidonote to the board. Rush with 3-4 swords turn 30 is very much doable without cheating, especially/or at least in 2vs2.

This is the simple strategy. One will play russia for double iron output. First both tech straight away to be able to build g8 library. Then the one not playing russia build g8 library and russia concentrates on worriors + 1 settler while teching to bronzeworking. When g8 library finish you get ironworking. What you will do is that russia will settle on the iron and the one constructing the g8 library transfers all his gold to the the teammate. Russia upgrade all his worriors and rush the nearest oponent.

Even if the economicly and citywize will be faar behind the opponent team, if they succed in killing of one of the oponents they ll win couse one, even thought strong won t last against 2.

This way you will be able to rush the oponent with swords very early in the game. Turn 30 wont be a problem at all.

So this is the not cheating way of doing this!

If I remember correctly, depending on resources haveing the g8 library built and of course getting ironworking is possible by turn 22-25ish (not 100% sure about the number of turns here but should be about right) If the teammate got the iron nearby, say 3-4 turns of walking the swords would be ready about turn 27-30, and then it would just be a question of thge distance to the opponent what turn they arrive for the first strike.
 
kettil.moller said:
Just wanted to put a small sidonote to the board. Rush with 3-4 swords turn 30 is very much doable without cheating, especially/or at least in 2vs2.

This is the simple strategy. One will play russia for double iron output. First both tech straight away to be able to build g8 library. Then the one not playing russia build g8 library and russia concentrates on worriors + 1 settler while teching to bronzeworking. When g8 library finish you get ironworking. What you will do is that russia will settle on the iron and the one constructing the g8 library transfers all his gold to the the teammate. Russia upgrade all his worriors and rush the nearest oponent.

Even if the economicly and citywize will be faar behind the opponent team, if they succed in killing of one of the oponents they ll win couse one, even thought strong won t last against 2.

This way you will be able to rush the oponent with swords very early in the game. Turn 30 wont be a problem at all.

So this is the not cheating way of doing this!

If I remember correctly, depending on resources haveing the g8 library built and of course getting ironworking is possible by turn 22-25ish (not 100% sure about the number of turns here but should be about right) If the teammate got the iron nearby, say 3-4 turns of walking the swords would be ready about turn 27-30, and then it would just be a question of thge distance to the opponent what turn they arrive for the first strike.
Click to expand...
So you're saying that in teamer matches both participants in the team receive the technology the other has researched.. that both but all their beakers into the same 'pool'?

Intriguing.
 
kettil.moller said:
If I remember correctly, depending on resources haveing the g8 library built and of course getting ironworking is possible by turn 22-25ish (not 100% sure about the number of turns here but should be about right) If the teammate got the iron nearby, say 3-4 turns of walking the swords would be ready about turn 27-30, and then it would just be a question of thge distance to the opponent what turn they arrive for the first strike.
Click to expand...

Good strategy. With one civ you can build GL around turn 22 but can't settle iron and build stuff fast enough to reach opponent before turn 30. But, if a teammate go military simultaneously when he discover iron as well, i can see the edge they can get with such approach. A civ like Egypt or France are good contestants to build a fast GL.
 
Agreed, the Great Library is one of the more effective wonders in 2v2, since it affects BOTH teammates (or ALL teammates in 3v3, 4v4). Alternatively, you can simply count the increase in beakers it provides, without costing more hammers.

In fact, I would guess that any optimal 2v2 or 3v3 strategy involves racing for great library with egypt or france.

Other things that affect everyone:
Great Scientists [Porcelain Tower]
Rationalism bonus techs (imagine team of 4 all getting this)
Research Agreement (if many teams)

I think standard practice would be to require everyone to make a great scientist once universities are invented (which should either be bee-lined if pikeman-rushing or after steel if longsword rushing).
 
in 80% of my games, i have no iron in my first 2 cities. how can u be so sure to find one that early ?
 
Coincide planting 4th city with finishing iron research, then go plant on the nearest iron.


GL in a teamer for Iron Working is a not the best use of the wonder. Much better would be to pop Metal Casting with it. Then you are that much closer to Steel and Longswords. It doesnt take that long to get ironworking when both teammates beeline it.
 
Yes I have seen this many times over the last 10 years, new players thinking vet players are cheating simply because they are expert micro-managers.

This concept parallels this famous quote:

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic- Arthur C. Clarke


CS
 
well just did a turn 38 5sword rush -> turn 58 4 longsword+10 sword rush [no gold to upgrade more than 4]

this was with france, no national college, ICS style

policy order:
Liberty-half food thing-Republic-Piety (won, but was going for theocracy next)

Tech Order:
AH-Mining-Pottery-Calender-Bronze Working-Trapping-Iron Working -> Steel

Strategy was settle on luxuries. I deemed it unnecessary to do ultra-fast rush because I had already confined closest neighbor [Germany] to 1 city via warrior/scout/city harassing. He left the game, proving unnecessary to conquer, so I upgraded 5 warrior to swords and killed 2 russian cities, who promptly left. I then conquered west to england and brought a settler along, settling next to his borders. Steel arrived with great general and he was promptly conquered, despite oligarchy.

mapsize was tiny, which made this quick and painless

By the way, if you never research The Wheel, automated workers can't ruin your economy with roads :)
 
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