Multiplayer: Luck or Strategy?

[Ecofarm]

Well, we can turn off barbs, huts, and lairs. This makes the game more "fair" in multiplayer, and pits players' strategies against each other, instead of winning by getting the luckiest vs. the AI (Orthos) or slot machines (huts).

But...

What is the deal with random events and cheater resources (Remnants, Mirror, Dragonbones, Fruit)?

The random events are pretty minor and do not break the game, so living with them is not so terrible, though I wish I could turn them off like in BTS.

More importantly:

Cheater resources.

C'mon. Starting with a 10 production tile? How about TWO?? In your capital?? That breaks the game - period. If you lose with that kind of an advantage in MP (or SP, as far as I can tell), you seriously need to re-read the "manuals". I am so sick of rehosting MP games because one of us gets a game-breaking cheater resource.

We often rehost 3-5 times for a game of 4 people because of cheater resources.

Is it possible to turn off cheater resources? Can we expect that in Shadow?


Note: I don't mind losing to a superior strategy (given the circumstances of a particular game) and greatly enjoy learning from other players even when they get the best of me or dogpile my beautiful #1 score. But those cheater resources should just trigger a victory screen and save us the trouble of quitting for rehost.

I would also note that the cheater resources do not balance starts. In other words, they do not appear in order to balance otherwise weak starts. After many (perhaps hundreds) of MP starts, it is quite clear that one person can have crappy land, and the other have Fruit, Dragonbones, gold and floodplains. I can deal with a crappy start vs. gold and floodplains (and I might even win), but not vs. 10 production unimproved tiles. Give me a chance, ay?

 

[Bad Player]

Are those 'cheater' resources inherently overpowered then, do you think?

Although I have limited MP experience I think luck makes the games more fun because you have to be more adaptable rather than running with the same strategies over and over again.

 

[Ecofarm]

If I start with fruit, by turn 30 I will have double your score and the gap will only increase. Mirror and dragon also break the game, but do not result in double-score almost instantly because tech (gold) affects score less than population total. The remnants are basically +50% hammer production for the first 50 turns.

It's not just overpowered. It requires a rehost.

Would you use it in MP? Who would? In SP, why not just go into worldbuilder and give yourself a few cities and iron golems? Seriously, save me the one sided games and just give me this (on turn 1): "Ecofarm has achieved a fruit victory".

We (MPs) need to be able to turn them off instead of rehosting multiple times per game.


Maybe in single player (diety difficulty?) they could be useful.


I don't run the same strats over and over. I have a plan and framework that I work within and adjust. I am forced to adapt according to resources available (incense and reagents especially), quality of land, location of enemies, leader/civ of enemies, and the actions of other players. Then there's tactics and the executions of small plans, taking gambits, and forging alliances (and then breaking them to win).

How does getting an important/big tech for free (huts) or a 10 production unimproved tile (remnant, dragon, mirror, fruit) in your capital require "adaptability"? It basically allows you to do whatever you want and still win... That's not adapting. That's pwning. The resources do not gaurentee that you adapt, but that you pwn.

Of course, I'm referring to MP. In SP, you can adjust the difficulty level if you want to play with cheater resources. Or just enjoy the change of pace (that is, a massive acceleration of the pace - for you and not everyone else).

 

[Lord Yanaek]

You know, those special resources are just a come-back from Alpha Centauri. I don't remember anyone complaining about them breaking games!

I'm not sure they should be removed completely. However, maybe the script should prevent starting positions to be near one of them. This way you would have to explore and build a second city (at least) in order to get the benefit. Of course you could explore with your starting settler to try and find one near your starting position, but then you would be several turns late on first city.

Of course, an option to turns them off wouldn't hurt anyone, those who want them wouldn't use the option.

 

[Maksim]

You know, those special resources are just a come-back from Alpha Centauri. I don't remember anyone complaining about them breaking games!

Actually, that's just bad memory. In Alpha Centauri, there was a jungle area, which gave +1 food on every tile. The AI civilization that started there ended up dominating the game 90% of the time.

The other special resources were not quite so game-breaking - a +1 Planet rating in Ruins was helpful to a Green player, but not to a free-marketeer; an area that gave +1 Energy (commerce) in each square was naturally limited by the fact that it didn't have much food otherwise.

The equivalents in FFH would be a special resource giving +1 Health - useful for some civs, not so useful for others - and the leader having financial trait (nice for cottaging, especially by the river).

Basically, any time you add a bonus to production or commerce, it's nice but not game-breaking. Add bonus food, and it's usually overkill (consider Agriculture!). Food is king.

 

[Lord Yanaek]

Duh, You're true i completely forgot about this one!

Well, then, maybe only Hyggdrasil is too powerfull. Mhh, actually the jungle was very powerful because it would give benefit to several cities. Hyggdrasil is no more powerfull than 2 floodplains with farms, or 2 pigs with pastures. Something that is not uncommon on some map setups.

Well actually it's more powerfull if you have it in your starting city fat-cross, because you feel the benefit from the very beginning of the game. That's why making sure no-one starts with those specials near their starting positions could be better then removing them altogether.

 

[Bad Player]

Could it be made to work only if you A) have access to the Fruit and B) follow FoL religion?

 

[Ecofarm]

You guys are ignoring that you get the increased production without building a worker or an improvement. That's the problem.

Remnants:
Getting 2 food 8 hammers on turn one creates a lead that should not be overcome. While everyone else is getting 1-3 hammers per turn for the first ~30 turns, Remnants give 8 per turn. That's like + 300-800% production for the first 20-40 turns. The +8 is +50% total hammer production for your entire empire until you have at least a developed capital and another city or 2. Would you consider starting with a free triple-strength forge in your cap to be overpowered? I would.

Dragonbones/Mirror:
Do we really need to go into the tech advantage of starting with a gold mine (Sun Mirror/Dragonbones) on turn 1? No worker, no teching crafting, no teching mining, no building a mine... C'mon. Why not just let me start playing 20 turns before everyone else?

Fruit:
You cannot compare it to "2 floodplains with farms" that enter the game about turn 20 (and require 2 population to work), or "2 pigs with pastures" that enter the game even later. With fruit, I'll have 2 workers and 2 settlers before you can build 2 farms or 2 pastures without.


I'm not saying that these resources have no place in the game. I'm sure there are settings (and role-plays) to balance getting them; however, MP is not one of those settings. I'm not saying to get rid of them all together. I'm just saying that there could/should be an option to turn them off.


Note: quickspeed

EDIT: It seems you addressed the fact that you get them from the start. However, even in your second city, the resources are huge. That city becomes a production powerhouse on the turn it is founded, instead of 30-40 turns later. Maybe in a third city it would not matter much. I think we can all agree that in a capital, it breaks an MP game. Everyone I play MP with agrees. My MP games usually (1/4 to 1/2 of the time) begin like this: Someone chats "mirror" (or dragon, or remnant, or fruit) and everyone quits for rehost.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

That's why making sure no-one starts with those specials near their starting positions could be better then removing them altogether.

Yes, I would like it if the game tried to place all the special features a certain minmum distance from all players starting positions and other features, if possible.
Anyway, though, Ecofarm makes good points.

 

[psychoak]

Minimal research requirements to work them would be nice. You still need hunting to get the ivory from the dragon bones(which always have an accompanying elephant) but the tile itself is the real bonus. If it had to be developed it wouldn't so vastly improve the start, and you'd be looking at more of a minor boost than a game breaking one that lets you pump warriors twice as fast, or set three settlements up in the time your opponent can get one.

 

[onedreamer]

You make good points Ecofarm, but frankly I don't think that having Sun Mana nearby your starting position is a bigger advantage than having bronze or iron. In many, many occasions I've had neither, since they are both rare on the map. So yes, it's a matter of luck, but then again, can you mention any game that doesn't need luck, along with skill, to win ?

 

[Kael]

We will add an option to disable unique features in games. Events, unfortunatly, are more difficult since we use the event mechanic for a lot more than BtS. If you disabled events in FfH some traits would stop working, armageddon effects would stop working and in "shadow" there is even a spell that triggers an event that wouldn't work.

Not to say its impossible, I would need to add a new attribute for events that were "disablable" and then add a game option to just turn those off. We may do it down the road, but its not high on the list right now.

 

[eerr]

how about something that sets :all rescources balanced?
tones down the pownage by say, capping production, gold, and food on a tile at 4 4 and 3 respectively?(and would be increased by certain techs)

 

[Arqane]

It looked to me more like the special tiles were meant to be researched and used later in the game (Yggdrasil being a nice example, since it was under FoL). I thought that the mechanic was just broken and meant to be fixed later.

Perhaps there could be one function added to create a shrine at any of the special sites. It could work like fortresses, where you would get the benefit once the appropriate tech was researched. Ygg could go back under FoL. Mysticism would probably be a good place to put the 'Build Shrine' worker option. Then you could have:

Build Shrine

with Yggdrasil and Hidden Paths: +7
with Remnants and (whatever the new Sun Mana religion is): +6
etc...

Basically makes it a Holy City Shrine that's already placed on the map, giving you an incentive to grab that piece of land.

 

[Lord Yanaek]

No, i think it wouldn't work as special resources are technically an improvement on their own, and i don't think you can put several improvements on the same tile.

However, their yield may vary depending on techs, as for normal improvements. So Ygg might give +2 food (nice but no more powerful than pigs) and with the required tech, give another +5 food (for a total of +7) and the fruits.

It would help solve early imbalances.

 

[onedreamer]

wouldn't the AI probably improve it with something else more productive meanwhile ?

 

[xienwolf]

Kael, I can't remember where they discussed turning off events as well (and you mentioned putting in a tag to mark certain events as "Turn off" capable.

If you do put in those tags, can you make 2 seperate toggle options? One for events, and another for Quests? Or possibly give quests an option to be triggered to all players simultaneously (so they can exist, yet be semi-balanced for MP) rather than to a randomly selected player as normal (probably much harder to set up).

 

[Lord Yanaek]

wouldn't the AI probably improve it with something else more productive meanwhile ?

Not if they are made non-replaceable. The sentry tower is such an improvement that can't be replaced. Quite a pain in a city's fat cross actually.

 

[Sureshot]

ya, im hating sentry towers as they are currently, only use is visibility, but thats useless when in your territory, and it making improvements unbuildable there makes it a dead tile.

i liked it better when sentry towers we pillageable and mana nodes couldn't be built on (now that you can build on them i tend to cottage them instead and end up reluctant to put a node improvement on them).

 

[Ecofarm]

However, their yield may vary depending on techs, as for normal improvements.

Sounds good. Tiles improve via techs. However, I would hate for grigori to grab leaves before my elves because he wanted to improve a tile. At least it would give reason for elves to go fire mad.

So Ygg might give +2 food (nice but no more powerful than pigs) and with the required tech, give another +5 food (for a total of +7) and the fruits.

+2 is same as pigs? I think that pigs are 3 (assuming no hill), +2 for pasture. That's +1 at start, not +2. The issue with the resources is timing. Starting with the equivelant of a boat or worker improved tile breaks game in MP. Settling on a river resource for a 3 commerce center (as a financial civ) is tremendous. Working a tile worth 2-3 times this is breaking.

You make good points Ecofarm, but frankly I don't think that having Sun Mana nearby your starting position is a bigger advantage than having bronze or iron. In many, many occasions I've had neither, since they are both rare on the map.

Mana alone? Fine. Even for PvP. An extra mana (that cannot be used much until mages/conjurers - sorcery/summoning) is a little spice for any strat. No big deal, and any imbalance (how many people will dangerously divert from a strat to incorporate an unexpected mana type and how many will have a clue what to do with it?) is justified by the flavor.

Now, are we talking about the sun mana that gives 7 hammers? Because it takes a l0ng time to see iron. I do not see how 7 hammers starting on turn 1 is the same thing as 7 hammers starting on turn 60-90. I would geusstimate the difference to be about 4 hammers per turn x 60 turns = 240hammers = 1 wonder or 3 defended cities or a nice platoon better. At turn 60, I would say that the iron is worth nothing when my sun mirror army comes knocking on your door.

So yes, it's a matter of luck, but then again, can you mention any game that doesn't need luck, along with skill, to win ?

Luck should not be a factor in pvp. I like to play strategy games. If I wanted games of luck, I would buy a lottery ticket; however, my understanding of odds and probability impairs my ability to enjoy slot machines.

In competative SP, I call shenanigans.

In team vs AI MP, fine. Let's enjoy our luck and mow them down.

In SP? On immortal+ raging barbs ok, otherwise nah.

If you do put in those tags, can you make 2 seperate toggle options? One for events, and another for Quests? Or possibly give quests an option to be triggered to all players simultaneously (so they can exist, yet be semi-balanced for MP) rather than to a randomly selected player as normal (probably much harder to set up).

If everyone gets a shot at the quest, and it is not resource based, that would be fun. It's like introducing a wonder during the game, with more interesting requirements.