Mutual Defense Pacts
- Thread starter snoweel
- Start date
They make that AI like you more, and I can only assume that they make you less likely to be attacked while they're still in effect.
As to your specific situation, Kublai Khan is on the aggressive side as AIs go (though not as psychotic as somebody like Montezuma). My guess is that when Washington cancelled the pact, Kublai saw his chance to go 1v1 and attacked.
As to your specific situation, Kublai Khan is on the aggressive side as AIs go (though not as psychotic as somebody like Montezuma). My guess is that when Washington cancelled the pact, Kublai saw his chance to go 1v1 and attacked.
Inqvisitor
King
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It seems from my experience that you can never have a defensive pact when you are at war with anyone. As soon as one nation declares war on you, the pacts get cancelled, and you cannot sign new ones. Your allies would join in the war a turn or so later, but after that its over.
I hope someone can correct me on this since this is just from my limited experience with Civ IV diplomacy and this seems sort of limiting to the development of intricate WWI-style alliances since any pacts fall apart as soon as one war breaks out.
I think the diplomacy options need to be expanded; unless you allow full-blown permanent alliances, there seem to be no useful long-term treaties like mutual protection pacts from Civ III or even the simple strategic alliances of Civ II.
I hope someone can correct me on this since this is just from my limited experience with Civ IV diplomacy and this seems sort of limiting to the development of intricate WWI-style alliances since any pacts fall apart as soon as one war breaks out.
I think the diplomacy options need to be expanded; unless you allow full-blown permanent alliances, there seem to be no useful long-term treaties like mutual protection pacts from Civ III or even the simple strategic alliances of Civ II.
From what I can tell, if you have a mutual defense pact, it's automatic - when someone attacks you, then all of your mutual defense allies attack that person, and the pact is broken. But its purpose has been served - you're all now at war with whoever attacked one of you.
And no, you can't get a defense pact with someone unless you're both at peace.
And no, you can't get a defense pact with someone unless you're both at peace.
Sidewinder00Q
Warlord
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What I don't like is that when someone declares war on you, the pact is cancelled. I've had it happen a couple of times when someone who was no where near me declare war, seemingly just to void the pact, a few turns later, my non-pacted neighbor follows suit, and there's nothing I can do to get my former pact member to declare war on that SOB.
Inqvisitor
King
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Exactly. There's no way to build up a long-term coalition with anyone so diplomacy ends up being as arbitrary as ever.Sidewinder00Q said:
lost_civantares
[Insert Title]
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It is annoying, but the idea is that if you want the relationship to get even better you would form a permement alliance.
Inqvisitor
King
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But permanent alliances may entail much more than just the common military goals you wish to fulfill. In Civ III it was both enjoyable and realistic to sign mutual protection pacts with several nations, and then be declared war on by a competing nation and its own multi-nation alliance, plunging the world into global conflict. I'm not sure what the point of the cancel-defensive pacts-on-war is about from either a gameplay or historical realism viewpoint. Obviously an AI civ may be less inclined to sign onto such a pact if it knows it would be immediately forced into a brutal war, but the option shouldn't just totally evaporate like it does now.
If a defense pact is broken, usually you should see the mug saying that they cannot accept the agreement anymore.
If you only see the pact was broken in the game log, that's almost always followed by having your partner declare war on someone that had just declared war on you.
Defense pact isn't particularly hard to maintain. You might get it from Pleased to Friendly, and you should be able to maintain one even at just Pleased. But if you do sign a defense pact (something that AI usually doesn't take lightly), they would expect that you'd help them when asked, and they would be more inclined to help in return (It's usually a lot easier to ask for that extra oil if you did sign a defense pact).
If you only see the pact was broken in the game log, that's almost always followed by having your partner declare war on someone that had just declared war on you.
Defense pact isn't particularly hard to maintain. You might get it from Pleased to Friendly, and you should be able to maintain one even at just Pleased. But if you do sign a defense pact (something that AI usually doesn't take lightly), they would expect that you'd help them when asked, and they would be more inclined to help in return (It's usually a lot easier to ask for that extra oil if you did sign a defense pact).
Thalassicus
Bytes and Nibblers
Defensive pact bonuses are permanent, too, from what I've seen. After a defensive pact is triggered by a war declaration, I typically have
"+2 Our defensive pact proves we are close friends"
"+2 Our mutual military struggle brings us closer together"
I've never noticed the pact bonus go away. As a result, I can often get them to declare war on other people anyways.
"+2 Our defensive pact proves we are close friends"
"+2 Our mutual military struggle brings us closer together"
I've never noticed the pact bonus go away. As a result, I can often get them to declare war on other people anyways.
lord_graywolfe
Wolfman
you cant get them to sign a permanent alliance with you untill you have had a defensive pact with them and the permanent alliance is something really want to get. unfortunately it seems that you can only have once permanent alliance at a time.
JanusTalaiini
Prince
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In earlier versions of the game, I had permanent alliances with more than one player, but since 1.52 I don't think I've been able to make more than one.
From my experience:
I had a defensive pact with America, Egypt, India, and England. England was attacked (by the French). I was notified that I had declared war on France, and all my defensive pacts were cancelled.
Whenever you declare war on anyone (whether automatically via pact obligation or manually), your defensive pacts are cancelled. But, as someone already pointed out, they've already served their purpose, and you can re-sign them as soon as you are at peace again.
But, all this only really made sense to me after I looked at the log. All those declarations and pact cancellations flew by so fast that I was sitting there for a few seconds saying: "Okay, what the heck just happened." It was actually quite cool.
It goes like this:
1. Your defenseive pact partner is attacked.
2. You automatically declare war on aggressor
3. All your defensive pacts are cancelled (even with the partner who was attacked).
Similar things happen when you are the one attacked. I'm not sure the log gets the chronology right every time, but the end result is the same.
Finally, the real interesting question is how the AI takes defensive pacts into account. . . if it does at all. I would like to think that the AI would consider the military might of allies before calculating whether to go to war. But, I'm not sure it does, since France's decision above was monumentally stupid and suicidal. I travelled halfway across a huge map (marathon game) with transports full of modern armor to wipe the map clear of them. . . all to honor my pledge to the English.
Have I mentioned that I love this game?
H
I had a defensive pact with America, Egypt, India, and England. England was attacked (by the French). I was notified that I had declared war on France, and all my defensive pacts were cancelled.
Whenever you declare war on anyone (whether automatically via pact obligation or manually), your defensive pacts are cancelled. But, as someone already pointed out, they've already served their purpose, and you can re-sign them as soon as you are at peace again.
But, all this only really made sense to me after I looked at the log. All those declarations and pact cancellations flew by so fast that I was sitting there for a few seconds saying: "Okay, what the heck just happened." It was actually quite cool.
It goes like this:
1. Your defenseive pact partner is attacked.
2. You automatically declare war on aggressor
3. All your defensive pacts are cancelled (even with the partner who was attacked).
Similar things happen when you are the one attacked. I'm not sure the log gets the chronology right every time, but the end result is the same.
Finally, the real interesting question is how the AI takes defensive pacts into account. . . if it does at all. I would like to think that the AI would consider the military might of allies before calculating whether to go to war. But, I'm not sure it does, since France's decision above was monumentally stupid and suicidal. I travelled halfway across a huge map (marathon game) with transports full of modern armor to wipe the map clear of them. . . all to honor my pledge to the English.
Have I mentioned that I love this game?
H
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