MW Armies

One area I am not very clear on is how defensive bombardment works. It seems to be very powerful since a 1 DB will often hit attacking units with much stronger stats. Does DB work under the regular bombardment rules, or does it operate under the regular attack and defense routine? The number of times this hits seems much greater than regular bombardment is able to do (a 1 bombardment rarely hits anything). DB also hits much more frequently than regular straight attack rolls are able to do, or should be able to do, given the low odds of success for low DF figures.

Something else, which may be involved in bombardment calculations, both offensive and defensive, is something I read about on an artillery related thread that was referred to as CHARM. But what this (acronym?) is was not explained on that thread, and a search just brought up a lot of examples of "it worked like a charm". :mad:

Edit: when a unit is successfully hit by defensive bombardment and loses a hp, the calculations for that combat maybe should then be calculated with that unit having 1 less hp. I completely forgot to state that in an earlier post about what kind of info is needed when documenting civ battles. The combat calculator has a setting where defensive bombardment can be plugged into the equation, so using it, it may not be necessary to keep track of successful DBs and run the calculation at 1 hp lower for the attacker's unit. Trying to keep track of successful DBs during the AI's turn is a real headache, so I just let the combat calculator decide.
 
If my memory is right, in Civ2 the rng roll loss accounted for 1/10 of a hp and the game kept rolling till one side lost all its hp. Which for a 3 hp unit, would mean at least 30 rng roll losses. It was my impression this system was kept for Civ3?

Wasn't the very high effective number of hit points all about firepower though? Firepower was dropped for Civ3, I'm sure, and that is one of the reasons often quoted by Civ2 fans as to why Civ3 is "teh worstest game evar".

If there is still a hidden subdivision of hit points, it should show up in the stats. The effect of increasing hit points is to skew the overall result in favour of the stronger combatant. For example, assuming that my earlier explanation of the combat system was correct, we have the following final outcomes for a sword versus spear battle on null terrain...

1hp sword vs 1hp spear: sword wins 60% of the time.
2hp sword vs 2hp spear: sword wins 64.8% of the time.
3hp sword vs 3hp spear: sword wins 68.26% of the time.
4hp sword vs 4hp spear: sword wins 71.02% of the time.
5hp sword vs 5hp spear: sword wins 73.34% of the time.

So if each visible hit point actually requires 10 successful rng hits to kill it, we would expect the sword to win each round of combat against the spear 81.39% of the time.
Applying this model to a real game example, we'd have a vet sword attacking a reg spear fortified in a lowland town (Def 2.7) winning 59.2% of combat rounds, and thus having an 81% chance of killing the spear.
 
Wasn't the very high effective number of hit points all about firepower though? Firepower was dropped for Civ3, I'm sure, and that is one of the reasons often quoted by Civ2 fans as to why Civ3 is "teh worstest game evar".

I am one of those disappointed with the change from firepower to rate of fire, since it complicated the way units could be modified better against each other. But that change may have been due to the change in how the rng worked and how damage was applied. I'm just guessing here.

If there is still a hidden subdivision of hit points, it should show up in the stats. The effect of increasing hit points is to skew the overall result in favour of the stronger combatant. For example, assuming that my earlier explanation of the combat system was correct, we have the following final outcomes for a sword versus spear battle on null terrain...

1hp sword vs 1hp spear: sword wins 60% of the time.
2hp sword vs 2hp spear: sword wins 64.8% of the time.
3hp sword vs 3hp spear: sword wins 68.26% of the time.
4hp sword vs 4hp spear: sword wins 71.02% of the time.
5hp sword vs 5hp spear: sword wins 73.34% of the time.

So if each visible hit point actually requires 10 successful rng hits to kill it, we would expect the sword to win each round of combat against the spear 81.39% of the time.
Applying this model to a real game example, we'd have a vet sword attacking a reg spear fortified in a lowland town (Def 2.7) winning 59.2% of combat rounds, and thus having an 81% chance of killing the spear.

Agree, except I'm not sure where the 59.2 and 81 figures come from in your final example. :confused:
 
I'm not trying to be picky, but since we've gone around this carousel of fun several times, I think this might be an insight into some of your difficulties.

I once read a piece of advice that said every city should have two of the top-of-the-line defenders at all times. The AI would agree with you. But it will kill your game play and is in the top ten worst habits, IMO. In fact, if you have not even learned Math yet I would question why you have any defenders at all. I don't even bother with more than a token force of defenders until infantry. Two per city is way too much, even with raging barbarians running around.

I do agree with one thing though - it was a critical time in the game.

I was nearly overrun by the AI on another front because I had to draw off resources to nail the coffin shut on the other war front.

It sounds to me like you are having more difficulties than me, lol. Seriously, I stated quite clearly that the game was going swimmingly. Perfect. Except for the loss of the Army. There were no criticisms to be made about my play. I reloaded to a few turns back and creamed the game, Buttercup the Magnificent.

Do you all just keep harping on about bombard units because you know it annoys me? I tried to use 4 canons in this game. They managed to get to the front line and help take out one city (out of about 30-40 needed to win the Conquest win). It felt like the most frustrating thing ever having them crawl up to a town while my armies were tearing everything else to shreds. Maybe you don't ever get armies? Maybe that's the flaw with your game? Also, did you actually not read the part where I said I hadn't even learnt Mathematics by the time you advise I use them? Why do you ignore this rather crucial point?

Two defenders per city? Of course I don't when I'm using Republic. When I'm in Despotism and two defenders makes two people content, of course I have two defenders. Duh?

Two defenders per city? Of course I do when I'm at war with two civs and the towns in question are surrounded by warriors and archers. Duh?


Anyway, I noticed something really odd in this game, really freaked me out somewhat, I had to have a break and recompose. It didn't hamper my game, but it was startlingly telling of how the AI operates.

Following my assault on the AI civ on my border there was one town left on my border, hidden away in Jungle and Marsh. This town leads to a short-cut to another AI civ, avoiding most of the mountains. I generally run dry of troops to take this town and tend to leave it until the second assault on the civ in about 20/30 turns (while I build Libraries and Markets etc). The civ is out the game but it just needs mopping up.

Anyway, in this run-through I had a Sword Army for the first time on this map (which I've done from Cheiftan to Emperor so far) and so thought I'd take this annoying last town on my border. Just as I got there, literally outside the gates, the Portuguese took it and I didn't fancy a war with them at that point having just sent a stack of them home following a peace treaty.

So I left it for a while. Soon enough the Portuguese declared war on me and I enacted a dog-pile against them. Again, just as I got to the border of this same town, the Ottoman's re-took it. And they were now on my side and being a great help distracting the Portuguese stacks. Ho-hum.

Anyway, the time came to take out the Ottomans once and for all, as is the routine of this game. Once again, just as I'm at the town's gates...

... and this is the really bizzare thing...

It turns back to a Portuguese town. I gave up and re-declared on the Portuguese as well.

Now, there was only three possible scenarios here:

1. The Ottomans sold/swapped the town for something knowing it would irritate me and make me declare on the Portuguese.

2. The Ottomans suffered a culture flip at the exact moment I arrived at the gates.

3. The game just plain cheated.

Not only this, oh no, but also the town expanded over my road to the short cut at the exact moment my short-cut had finished being roaded. The workers were still on their way home, the border expansion was that well timed.

It's little things like this that make you realise the AI is playing a game you don't even know you're going to be playing right from the first move. Somehow the programme knew, defacto, that this town, though useless, would become a vital staging post for the human player and prioritised it accordingly, with that oft lamented AI teamwork. :scan:
 
Now, there was only three possible scenarios here:

1. The Ottomans sold/swapped the town for something knowing it would irritate me and make me declare on the Portuguese.
...
3. The game just plain cheated.

Not only this, oh no, but also the town expanded over my road to the short cut at the exact moment my short-cut had finished being roaded. The workers were still on their way home, the border expansion was that well timed.

It's little things like this that make you realise the AI is playing a game you don't even know you're going to be playing right from the first move. Somehow the programme knew, defacto, that this town, though useless, would become a vital staging post for the human player and prioritised it accordingly, with that oft lamented AI teamwork.

It just doesn't make sense. If Firaxis could write software capable of the kind of thoughts you attribute to the Civ3 AI, they would be world-famous for beating the Turing Test, they'd be writing Skynet, we'd be heralding the birth of the first true artificial intelligence. Instead, they're desperately patching the shambolic Civ5, which is widely derided for having laughably incompetent AI opponents.
 
It just doesn't make sense. If Firaxis could write software capable of the kind of thoughts you attribute to the Civ3 AI, they would be world-famous for beating the Turing Test, they'd be writing Skynet, we'd be heralding the birth of the first true artificial intelligence. Instead, they're desperately patching the shambolic Civ5, which is widely derided for having laughably incompetent AI opponents.

:lol:
 
Buttercup

The macrocheats I don't so much mind, they make a mostly AI free game more interesting. It's the microcheats that get to me. They're kinda like dating a woman who turns out to have an unexpected extra part. :eekdance: :cringe:
 
Agree, except I'm not sure where the 59.2 and 81 figures come from in your final example. :confused:

I made a spreadsheet to calculate the probabilities of a simple battle under the Civ3 system as I understand it. Inputs are attacker Att, attacker HP, defender Def, defender HP. Outputs are probability of attacker or defender winning, and expectation of remaining HP for attacker and defender.
So to get the 59.2% figure for a Civ2-style 10 round battle for a single HP, I set Att=3, Def=2.7, and both combatants to have 10hp. This gave me 59.2% chance of attacker winning. I then used that figure as the new Att, with a Def of 40.8 making up the rest of the 100%, and set the HP as originally specified: attacker is vet, defender is reg. That spat out 80.96% attacker wins.

For reference, without using subdivided HP, the outcome of this match-up should be 70.42% attacker wins.

...
...

:coffee:

Meanwhile, some preliminary stats from my combat logging: I've fired 42 artillery shots against armour, unfortified on flat land, with more than 2hp.
I got 13 misses, 23 single hits, and 6 double hits.
If I work on the assumption that the artillery's two hits are resolved independently, my spreadsheet calculates the expectations of these outcomes as 15 misses, 20 singles, and 7 doubles. That's pretty close to the observation, actually.

To compare, I can think of two other possible models for artillery rate of fire, which now seem less likely to be the correct one:
(1) Getting to roll for the second hit is dependant on the first hit being a success. In this case the expectations for 42 shots would be 25 : 10 : 7.
(2) There is a single roll to hit, followed by some other function to determine whether the damage is 1 or 2 hp, such as simply a 50/50 chance. In which case expectations would be 25 : 8.5 : 8.5.


Right, I'm to bed, so I can get up in time for work, where I do pretty much exactly the same type of spreadsheets. :lol:
 
I made a spreadsheet to calculate the probabilities of a simple battle under the Civ3 system as I understand it. Inputs are attacker Att, attacker HP, defender Def, defender HP. Outputs are probability of attacker or defender winning, and expectation of remaining HP for attacker and defender.
So to get the 59.2% figure for a Civ2-style 10 round battle for a single HP, I set Att=3, Def=2.7, and both combatants to have 10hp. This gave me 59.2% chance of attacker winning. I then used that figure as the new Att, with a Def of 40.8 making up the rest of the 100%, and set the HP as originally specified: attacker is vet, defender is reg. That spat out 80.96% attacker wins.

OK. The source where I got the info that the Civ2 game broke the hp down into tenths was the Civ2 manual. I've know idea if it was actually used in the game.

For reference, without using subdivided HP, the outcome of this match-up should be 70.42% attacker wins.

That's what the combat calculator came up with. It looked like this:

to 5.034% AI win, no HP loss.
+5.034% - 15.633% AI win, 1 HP loss.
+15.633% - 29.579% AI win, 2 HP loss.
+29.579% - 45.075% player win, 3 HP loss.
+45.075% - 64.703% player win, 2 HP loss.
+64.703% - 85.421% player win, 1 HP loss.
+85.421% - 100% player win, no HP loss.

So on those all too frequent times that the AI spear defeats the player sword without being damaged in those circumstances, the odds are only 1 in 20 that this would happen. :eek: :D

Meanwhile, some preliminary stats from my combat logging: I've fired 42 artillery shots against armour, unfortified on flat land, with more than 2hp.
I got 13 misses, 23 single hits, and 6 double hits.
If I work on the assumption that the artillery's two hits are resolved independently, my spreadsheet calculates the expectations of these outcomes as 15 misses, 20 singles, and 7 doubles. That's pretty close to the observation, actually.

To compare, I can think of two other possible models for artillery rate of fire, which now seem less likely to be the correct one:
(1) Getting to roll for the second hit is dependant on the first hit being a success. In this case the expectations for 42 shots would be 25 : 10 : 7.
(2) There is a single roll to hit, followed by some other function to determine whether the damage is 1 or 2 hp, such as simply a 50/50 chance. In which case expectations would be 25 : 8.5 : 8.5.

So far in my game, the only bombardment has been some AI dromens (stats - 6 off, 2 bom, 2 def, 4 move) bombarding coastal towns of mine. They are hitting something about half the time, but most of the time I cant tell what they have hit since the unit heals up by the time the player turn comes around. A couple of towns shelled didn't have harbors or barracks yet and I was able to see what unit got it.

These were a curragh (stats - 2 off, 2 def bom, 2 def, 3 move) fortified in a mountain tile town. To find the odds for this I don't know what I should use, since ships in port I believe get a special minus. The AI has been hitting the curraghs about 75%.

The other unit I saw being hit was a land unit. It's defense was 3, and the bonus it got was 46%. The AI dromen hit it once, then missed the next time. The odds work out to be a 36% chance of successful bombardment for this. There has only been a couple of AI bombard attacks on this town. That's all I got definite so far on bombardments in this game. The player side doesn't have the resources necessary to build catapults, nor the tech for dromens yet.

I'd like to add that the AI has been showing a little uncharacteristic gray matter in how it's been running its sea forces :eek: . I've captured all the AI cities on the continent we shared and they have a couple left on an island close off shore. Since soon after the war began the AI positioned a couple dromons between the continent and the island, effectively preventing my crossing over to there. Those same 2 dromons close the coast during the AI turn, bombarding coastal towns, then retreating out of range of possible catapult reply during the player turn. Since the player curraghs are no match for these dromons, the risk of loosing ships loaded with expensive troops has prevented the player chancing a crossing till they can build some dromons of their own to escort the troop carrying curraghs.

Meanwhile, the AI sent 2 fleets, each of 2 curraghs escorted by a dromon around the north (the fighting has been on the eastern edge of the continent) towards the west, threatening the player's cities on the northern and western coasts with possible invasion. As each fleet could have up to 8-9 troops, I had to move land forces away from the eastern fighting to follow these fleets. I now doubt the fleets have troops aboard, because they have not tried to land them, but I'll keep the troops near them just in case. But an AI curragh apparently had journeyed around the southern edge of the continent, which is another AI's territory, and dropped off 3 troops next to one of my western cities. This curragh must have got started soon after the war began, or maybe before, since it's a long trip that route. There may be more of these on the way too.

All and all, the AI sea strategy has been pretty good, much better than their land strategy had been. They picked off a few undefended weak player units in the first couple of rounds, but mostly scattered their units about unsupported where they were easy for me to mop up during the player turn. After their losses in the first couple of turns, the AI kept mostly to defending their cities and placed their hope in the rng - which has helped them more than their strategy has. :D
 
@ Buttercup

First, it is difficult to actually have a debate with you because you seem to take everything as a personal attack. Is there some reason you find it impossible to have a discussion without tossing insults around? I sympathize with ChaosArbiter. Drop the attitude. Just because I disagree with you does not mean I’m stupid. It doesn't mean you are stupid either. It may just mean we have a difference in opinion.

When I enter these debates it is because I am interested in what you do and why do it. I'm certainly not perfect and the only way to get better is to listen to what other people do so I can incorporate them into my playing style.

I collapsed the main body because of its length and that fact that it may not be completely releveant to everyone.

Spoiler :

It sounds to me like you are having more difficulties than me, lol.

Perhaps. I really put myself in a straightjacket for that game. My chosen path for that game was very specific and though the AI was never a threat to my VC it was certainly aggravating at a few points. The point where I lost my army was certainly towards the top of the list of aggravations. :D

And, of course, the game mechanics chose that moment to :backstab:

I reloaded to a few turns back and creamed the game, Buttercup the Magnificent.

It's little things like this that make you realise the AI is playing a game you don't even know you're going to be playing right from the first move.

You read my mind. On the other hand, I just hate it when the super intelligent maga-AI reloads the game when things go bad for them. Oh wait . . .

Except for the loss of the Army. There were no criticisms to be made about my play.

This may be the problem. I was not criticizing your play; I was forming a counter argument to your earlier statement that bombard units are not cost effective (paraphrased). You presented the argument, I am responding. To steal a quote “complaining about it won’t do any good”. Unless, of course, you are a wookie, in which case I withdraw the comments in full to save my arms from being ripped from their sockets.

Maybe you don't ever get armies? Maybe that's the flaw with your game?

You are right. I usually don’t bother with armies after Lazelot pointed out that they really are not necessary for anything less than Deity and not even then most times. I’ve found that to be pretty good advice. I tend to use armies more in C3C because there is really not much else to use GLs on. With PTW I’d usually rather build something else.

Do you all just keep harping on about bombard units because you know it annoys me? I tried to use 4 canons in this game.

Yes. I exist just to follow you around this forum. That aside, I realize how silly I am being. Everyone knows that all you need are four attempts to form a statistical analysis that is utterly impervious. Some people would call this an 'observation' but they are clearly just slow learners.

Also, did you actually not read the part where I said I hadn't even learnt Mathematics by the time you advise I use them? Why do you ignore this rather crucial point?

I was not containing myself to this specific instance because you were not constraining your argument either. I was making a broad comment and I later discuss the cost of maintaining your defense force vs. the benefits of bombardment units.

Two defenders per city? Of course I do when I'm at war with two civs and the towns in question are surrounded by warriors and archers. Duh?

Duh indeed. But that is not what you said.

Not to mention the fact that my economy was at it's complete limit with 2 defenders in each town, 4 Swordsmen 3 Workers and a settler. If I'm going to shell out on another unit, it's not going to be one catapult to then take 2/3 turns to build and a further 10 turns to go and meet the army at the gates of a town it should just walk into, I suspect the town may be better defended by then. Not to mention the fact that it will need an escort for the journey. Shall I send my army back to pick it up? All, of course, for a *possible* damage of 1 Hit Point to a defending Spearman.

So taking offense at my response doesn’t make sense. I also made allowance for this in my reply which you chose to ignore in spite of your frustration when you think people do the same thing to you. It would be easier to debate something with you if you would be consistent on what you say.

As to the actual matter at hand, you may find a few well placed catapults make a big difference on defense. As the AI is pretty dumb and continues to use the same route over and over, you can often bombard incoming units even with the limited movement and range of a catapult. This will make them easier to kill or force them to withdraw to heal so you can deal with them later. The advantage of the defender’s roads and the immediate arrival of new builds can be vital here. Delaying an incoming attack by a few turns can be crucial. Otherwise you need to hope that those incoming attackers do, in fact, die on your spears. If the attacker actually reaches my defenders I consider that the first point of failure in my tactics.

Two defenders per city? Of course I don't when I'm using Republic. When I'm in Despotism and two defenders makes two people content, of course I have two defenders. Duh?

Yes, duh. Two defenders making two people content only makes sense if after using the luxury slider you actually need two MPs in the town. Of course you didn’t actually state you were using them as MPs but being smart I came to the conclusion you might have actually intended this use. And if you have a situation where every city requires two MPs, then you might consider using the luxury slider rather than washing 20-40 shields and 2 unit support per city down the drain. MPs are nice in despotism for the cities that need them. The rest should be doing something useful.

**Edit** I should add in all fairness that I could see some rare but specific situations where this might be applicable. My comments were to target the majority of situations, not the rare occurrence.

 
Back on topic:

I built some fortresses in my current game, trying out the lunacy of Demigod level. It seemed to work. The AI pretty much ignored me other than the occasional demand for 50 Gold Pieces or I die.

Then I finally got the Military Tradition tech (about an entire tech age after the AIs) and started to build the Military Academy so I could form some armies and get back in the game.

Low and behold, the AI declared on me instantly. Completely out the blue.

Not to worry I thought, my Musketmen have a defence of 9.4 sitting behind their barricades. Come and try, I thought.

It's first attack, from a Knight 4/3/2 reduced my Musketman to 2 Hit Point. The second Knight died and a Rifleman 4/6/1 finished my Musketman off.

So it would appear that these types of fortifications only really work on teeny tiny choke points with multiple defenders. A long line of them with one defender seems to have zero deterrence to the AI. The AI is fully aware that using 4's to attack a 9.4 is a done deal. I thought it might have a go with a posse of Cavarly, but Knights and Rifleman?

Also, as an aside, for those that want to give advice rather than talk about stats and annoying deaths (excluding Raliuven of course), when playing on Demigod, how do you cope with all the 'give me this money/tech or you die' messages, and if you just give in to them what do you do when the AI just marches up to you and declares war? I'm playing on Normal AI Aggression. Do you recommend I reduce this setting? Is it the 'done thing' to reduce the AI aggression settings on higher levels to compensate for their superior numbers and advanced tech rate? I can keep up with them in the tech race, but it seems every time I do I find a mass of units outside my door pillaging my improvements, taking away workers and harassing my defenders. Since it's this particular aspect which forces me to fall behind in techs, how do you cope with this particular aspect of the game?
 
Give them whatever they ask for until you have sufficient military to fight them, or turn down the aggression and they basically won't make all that many demands at any level. I believe most players don't reduce the AI aggression level, but it's your game. If you play for the HoF, unless you want more aggressive AIs to say increase them declaring on you for war happiness, you really don't have much need for anything other than least aggressive AI. The top scoring histographic game (and the 3rd highest histographic also both by Moonsinger) had the AI at the lowest aggression setting. Almost every XOTM gets played at normal aggression.
 
Not to worry I thought, my Musketmen have a defence of 9.4 sitting behind their barricades. Come and try, I thought.

It's first attack, from a Knight 4/3/2 reduced my Musketman to 2 Hit Point. The second Knight died and a Rifleman 4/6/1 finished my Musketman off.

So it would appear that these types of fortifications only really work on teeny tiny choke points with multiple defenders. A long line of them with one defender seems to have zero deterrence to the AI. The AI is fully aware that using 4's to attack a 9.4 is a done deal. I thought it might have a go with a posse of Cavarly, but Knights and Rifleman?

There is some formula for how the AI works out whether it is worth attacking a defending unit. If you are below the limit or have some really important city, it will attack, even at the cost of massive casualties. This why armies are quite good, b/c the AI most of the time will not attack a fully healed army, unless they are way ahead in tech (like modern armor vs cav army).

Note that the AI likes to attack chokepoints (if there is no other land route to your empire except through a fortified army, they may just attack). They also love killing landings that capture cities, so if you land on their continent, take a city, and they have units in range they will keep attacking until they run out of units or they kill yours. This predictable behavior can be exploited by a human player with things like the well-known "funnel of doom" (I think it was SirPleb in his HoF game for 80k that invented this approach).

Also, as an aside, for those that want to give advice rather than talk about stats and annoying deaths (excluding Raliuven of course), when playing on Demigod, how do you cope with all the 'give me this money/tech or you die' messages, and if you just give in to them what do you do when the AI just marches up to you and declares war? I'm playing on Normal AI Aggression. Do you recommend I reduce this setting? Is it the 'done thing' to reduce the AI aggression settings on higher levels to compensate for their superior numbers and advanced tech rate? I can keep up with them in the tech race, but it seems every time I do I find a mass of units outside my door pillaging my improvements, taking away workers and harassing my defenders. Since it's this particular aspect which forces me to fall behind in techs, how do you cope with this particular aspect of the game?

I usually keep aggression level normal for all games, for reference.

I usually evaluate demands on a case by case basis. Can I afford a war against this AI? Am I going to lose goods that I was trading for? Are they weak or strong vs me on the military adviser screen? If they are far away and I am not trading, I just sit back and enjoy my war happiness. If they are next to me or have something I need, I give in unless I have my army in place to defend or take territory, or I have a way larger military and am almost sure they are bluffing.

You can reduce demands by having less to give, use your gold rather than storing it up, and trade away all techs for more gold that you then spend on something.

To avoid pillaging and worker steals, don't be afraid to move your workers out of the way, and to kill all of those units that are in your territory. Also note that the AI loves to pillage resource squares, so don't let them do it. Defensive/offensive artillery and fast units for zone defense is my usual way of killing marauders.
 
At Demigod and above, I give in to a lot of demands. The only thing I would worry about is literature if I have a monopoly and am building the great library. Demands for small amounts of cash are not worth risking war for. Demands for techs are unlikely, as I am unlikely to be a tech leader, and if I learn a tech that an AI wants, I'm probably trading it immediately. Demands for resources are also unlikely, as if I can trade, I will. Even if it isn't a great trade, it is better than nothing; if I don't trade, it is likely to be demanded.

When the local AI declare on me, I get allies if I can. I fight a defensive war, trying to reduce their stacks using artillery units, taking advantage of roads and terrain when I can (although this part I'm not very good at), and picking off stray units. If I'm a republic, I might give away indefensible towns, hopefully to a far away ally, so I can take it back from my enemy later. Sometimes I just try to hang on until the enemy will talk.
 
Also, as an aside, for those that want to give advice rather than talk about stats and annoying deaths (excluding Raliuven of course), when playing on Demigod, how do you cope with all the 'give me this money/tech or you die' messages
If these people can hurt you, then you'd better do as they say. Take your revenge later when you are stronger. If they can't hurt you, then relax and laugh in their faces. If you are lucky, they will dow and your people will be happy.

what do you do when the AI just marches up to you and declares war?
Then you fight.
Fight just inside the edge of your border if possible, where you get the benefit of roads and your opponent doesn't.
Fight with bombardment, because bombardment units never lose. Also bear in mind that if you yellow-line an AI unit, it will usually turn around and walk home to heal.
Fight with attacking units, because they can choose when, where and who to fight to get the best odds.
Fight with fast units, who can hit the AI stack and then get out of its way.
Fight with allies. If you have other neighbours, you want them on your side, because a two-front war is more than twice the pain. If your opponent has other neighbours, you want them on your side, because then it's more than twice the pain for them. But remember that you need to maintain your side of the alliance for at least 20 turns, or until your allies back out, if you want to maintain your rep.
 
If these people can hurt you, then you'd better do as they say. Take your revenge later when you are stronger. If they can't hurt you, then relax and laugh in their faces. If you are lucky, they will dow and your people will be happy.


Then you fight.
Fight just inside the edge of your border if possible, where you get the benefit of roads and your opponent doesn't.
Fight with bombardment, because bombardment units never lose. Also bear in mind that if you yellow-line an AI unit, it will usually turn around and walk home to heal.
Fight with attacking units, because they can choose when, where and who to fight to get the best odds.
Fight with fast units, who can hit the AI stack and then get out of its way.
Fight with allies. If you have other neighbours, you want them on your side, because a two-front war is more than twice the pain. If your opponent has other neighbours, you want them on your side, because then it's more than twice the pain for them. But remember that you need to maintain your side of the alliance for at least 20 turns, or until your allies back out, if you want to maintain your rep.

The other thing I would add if you really are not ready for war, but can hold them at bay for 5 turns, then make peace when they will talk

As for military alliances it depends, as PaperBeetle says the best ones are those where they have a border with the AI.
 
I'm trying out a few variables and I feel I'm getting close, but no cigar as yet.

The peaceful route:

I can still get to Philosophy first and therefore Republic first, which then enables me to keep pace with the weakest of the three AIs in the tech race. By this method I am even able to get the Mausoleum of Molassis and Copernicus. However, my army consisted of 4 warriors by the time the Ottomans asked me to declare on the weakest civ. So my blunder here was accepting this then declaring peace before the 20 turns were up rather than choosing to build some defensive armies. Again, I got invaded the moment I chose to research Military Tradition. I could try this again and amend my stance on the war but I'm still lagging behind the two leading AIs even maxing Tech, even at 7 turns for Military Tradition with just 4 Cities, so I don't know if I'd ever be able to catch up and attempt a win condition. I would like to get to Military Tradition by this method then stop research and max the army to see what happens.

I can also spam warriors right from the start. This also makes the AI leave me alone and by also spamming Swordsmen when they arrive I can even take a few cities and peace bargain for techs when my force has been depleted. However, by this method my tech is slow and I don't know if I'll even make Feudalism before Knights swarm my towns. I'll find out later today. With this method I do have 7 towns however and a much larger army, just no way to get them beyond size 4 or 5 as no cash and no avaiable production time.


They keys to this map and game are that I start with Iron and Horses and will have Saltpeter but I will need to take out a border town if I want Coal or Rubber or the all-important 3rd Luxury (yes, one town gets all three). This is why at lower levels I have always taken out this rival's Capital and two first cities as it deprives it if advancement, future resources, gets the third Luxury and prevents it using Iron (so no Knights). This is also the only civ with easy access to both Iron and Horses, making the other two relatively easy hurdles once I have taken down this first AI. I have also been playing as America, so I might find myself giving up them and trying either Persia, Celts, Romans, Carthage or Iroquois. Probably the Celts, but this a 3 Billion year old tiny map, so it's mainly hills, mountains, jungle and wetlands, hence I'm not sure even Celts or Catapults are that beneficial while roads are so lacking. Persia and Rome look like safe bets before the AI gets Knights.
 
Unfortunately, changing to the Celts also changed my start position. I'm now nowhere near the crucial territory and am in the position which has no Horses. Oh well. So I used the Gallic Swordsmen to take out the other weak civ and get the Horses but by the time I did this it was kind of too late to go anywhere with my tech. I swapped to a Culture win and spammed towns in my huge but Mountain-bound territory. I got the 60k Culture required for the Win Condition, but the only other AI left in the game has 50k and it's 1800, so there's not enough time left to get the double of its score as I'm only out pacing it by 92 Culture per turn.

Back to the drawing board. Think I'll try just swarming Gallic Swordsmen tomorrow and see if I can cause enough damage to have an impact in the game, I have a save from the moment the first AI civ was gone.
 
Buttercup, maybe you should post a game so people can give you advice.

Why are you focusing on the Mausoleum of Molasses? I never can be bothered. I suspect you're building too many buildings and wonders and not enough military. Maybe you could back down a level and try an all war game.

Paper Beetle's response to your question about demands is a very good concise answer. If they can hurt you, better do what they say.

Edit: Wait a minute, 4 cities at Military Tradition?!! That's a travesty, even on a small map. You need to expand much more aggressively in the early game. Give up on those AA wonders and get out Settlers, Workers, and military. I'm surprised you lasted that long. I might recommend Ision's old guide to Wonder Addiction. Try a game with no AA wonders at all and go heavy expansion and military. I'm sure your game will improve.
 
Not to worry, it's all been good advice and I have been trying several of the mentioned techniques. You have to be careful when giving general advice though yourself Ataxerxes because just because I build two cheap wonders you think I'm somehow losing valuable time. I can assure you than on the Demigod level there's very little time to build and populate and huge amount will depend on having a Cow in your city radius for this. Also don't forget that every time your capital sends out a settler it goes back to size 1. How on earth you are supposed to learn techs while spending the first 100 turns with size 1 towns is beyond me - and if you think you can just build more armies instead of learning tech then you have to be aware that after 100 turns the AI civs are beyond Feudalism and will eat your 30 Warriors as a snack.

Thanks for trying though Atax, and I'm sure there are some nice articles on not building wonders, but there is no defacto 'method' for each different map. I'll post either a save or a Seed Number next time I'm in that map :goodjob:
 
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