My 1.187 Challenge - China (and Vikings!)

[AgedOne]

China
Continuing with my challenge to complete all RFC Scenarios under patch 1.187, I have been looking at the Chinese.
I haven't been successful yet, and this is mostly because I haven't got my timing right so far. I keep having to give up when there is no chance of getting the 2 Confucian Academies and Taoist Pagodas by 1000AD.
I have read the strategy guides, and some good articles by usi and others. The idea of stealing workers from India has worked hilariously well at times. They never seem to get tired of sending unprotected workers out to the same place where I have taken them from. Also, they had a chariot nearby but were too scared to use it! It did give me the problem of what to do with about 12 extra workers!!
Getting enough protection against the barbs is normally not a big problem. Keeping my economy going while building 8 cities is more troublesome.
I haven't reached the fun time of the Mongol Hordes yet, having failed to achieve the cathedrals part yet.
Does anyone have any good advice on when (i.e which turns) I should be aiming to place my cities?

Vikings
As a bit of relief from the Chinese challenge, I tried the Vikings. Not being the greatest of war-makers, I played them primarily as peaceful traders - but not always.
First game was a bit of a learning experience. I wanted to get a feel for the pace of progress, and what dates I should be aiming to do various things. It was evidently much too slow, as I was nowhere near the 5000 gold in 1500AD.
Tried again, with the aim of going heavily onto wealth and off of science about 1000AD - but I was still short of the 5000, even though I had a Gt Merchant about to pop at 1500AD.

Third try, and it all worked out!

A very unconventional Viking game, and I could easily better the finish date if I tried again, but it was fun.
I settled Nidaros, Umea, Lulea, Kalmar, Bergen(?), Vasa (in Finland?). Took Inverness, but then made peace rather than war whenever I could. Built libraries, then markets and trading posts. Researched calendar, compass, guilds, optics.
At that point I went for max wealth, and (using Caste System) ran merchants which popped me one early and one late Gt Merchant. The money-making went so well this time that I actually didn't need the second Gt Merchant - and when I did complete that 2nd trade-mission my gold went up to 6000!
I then switched back to research - heading for Astronomy. However, I achieved the American settlement target by the 'back door' method of discovering the Aztecs, wiping them out with my expeditionary force, keeping one city and building a settler from there! I didn't think this was going to be a permissible means of founding an American city, but the judges said OK.
Having achieved two goals by 1500-something, I looked up my ship-killing stats. Only 5 killed so far. Well, that would have to change!
I researched straight for Military Science after Astronomy, and planned on a buccaneering life of piracy!
First, I declared on France, seeing that they had the weakest sea fleet. I was able to add a bunch to my kill stats using galleons against their triremes and caravels (though I did lose a couple).
When privateers were available, I went out mopping up all kind of stray weakling ships - whether they were French or not. I was sure I had passed the 25 limit, but had to wait one more turn for the victory message to come up.


A win. But in 1730, which is not fast! My score of 3000-something also told me that this one could be significantly better.

 

[Jusos2108]

My city placement with China can be found here, the red Xs.

 

[AgedOne]

My city placement with China can be found here, the red Xs.

Thanks!
For comparison, here is a recent attempt of mine:

I definitely think some of my placement could be improved on.

Out of interest, do you happen to remember how fast you settle the cities? I'm getting the feeling that I have expanded too quickly sometimes, but I guess it comes down to how early you have CoL and can start building courthouses.

 

[Veshta]

Vikings can become stupidly powerful if you play the 3000AD start. Often Rome and/or Greece has collapsed earlier on leaving at least one weak city in the Mediterranean (bonus if it has wonders/shrine) .. use swords to grab it, upgrade to Beserkers as soon as CS is done.
Use Beserkers and spears to run rampant in Egypt and Mesopotamia pillaging every cottage in sight. I have had a game where I ran full research, full production etc. and hit the 5k mark in the mid 14th century .. the pillage UA is insane when abused

Excess Beserkers should be used to wreak havoc in Europe at all times. You want the tech rate as slow as possible to extend their usefulness (ie. play them like the AI does, WAR!)

China is a lot more tricky, it comes down to worker management and whipping everything for the most part, at least in my experience. Happiness is made irrelevant as soon as Calendar comes around.
Cities can be placed quite close together, just have at least one food source for each and you are set for 3-4 specialists when happy/health ceiling is hit. Production cities do well with two food to feed the miners.
Try to get either the Wall or Colosseum, either will do wonders against barbs and mongols, the latter also comes in handy against everything else so is usually my preference.

 

[jorissimo]

@ Aged One, if you exactly follow usi's build orders and city placement, it won't be a problem. I did it a couple of days ago, and I had no trouble at all. After you settled all your cities and finished the build orders, first get your worker count up to 10, which, apparently, is no problem for you (12 workersfrom India, holy crap!). Then build/whip 12 spears and 5 axes (always whip if possible but don't stack anger), and then whip the temples and build the Pagodas in Beijing and Xi'an. I had them before 500 AD without any trouble. From there on it's easy.

 

[Alexius08]

Try founding all of your cities along the coast and go for Moai Statues, Great Lighthouse and Colossus.

 

[Norton II]

@ Aged One, if you exactly follow usi's build orders and city placement, it won't be a problem. I did it a couple of days ago, and I had no trouble at all. After you settled all your cities and finished the build orders, first get your worker count up to 10, which, apparently, is no problem for you (12 workersfrom India, holy crap!). Then build/whip 12 spears and 5 axes (always whip if possible but don't stack anger), and then whip the temples and build the Pagodas in Beijing and Xi'an. I had them before 500 AD without any trouble. From there on it's easy.

Seconded. I got China's UHV a few patches back but had trouble getting it in recent versions. I gave it another shot today with usi's guide, and things are going very well. It's 470 AD, I just finished researching music, and I've started my first Confucian academy in Beijing (I already have 8 temples for each religion as well). I only managed to steal one worker from India, but that wasn't much of a problem; India's my vassal now, and I'm having them research Construction for me so I can start my war elephant stack soon (they already researched HBR for me, and no one wants to trade construction). I might have been able to get to music faster if I'd researched currency right after calendar but before aesthetics, but things have turned out well enough.

 

[AgedOne]

@ Aged One, if you exactly follow usi's build orders and city placement, it won't be a problem. I did it a couple of days ago, and I had no trouble at all. After you settled all your cities and finished the build orders, first get your worker count up to 10, which, apparently, is no problem for you (12 workersfrom India, holy crap!). Then build/whip 12 spears and 5 axes (always whip if possible but don't stack anger), and then whip the temples and build the Pagodas in Beijing and Xi'an. I had them before 500 AD without any trouble. From there on it's easy.

Try founding all of your cities along the coast and go for Moai Statues, Great Lighthouse and Colossus.

Seconded. I got China's UHV a few patches back but had trouble getting it in recent versions. I gave it another shot today with usi's guide, and things are going very well. It's 470 AD, I just finished researching music, and I've started my first Confucian academy in Beijing (I already have 8 temples for each religion as well). I only managed to steal one worker from India, but that wasn't much of a problem; India's my vassal now, and I'm having them research Construction for me so I can start my war elephant stack soon (they already researched HBR for me, and no one wants to trade construction). I might have been able to get to music faster if I'd researched currency right after calendar but before aesthetics, but things have turned out well enough.

While I agree with the ideas, I would just like to say that the last thing I want to do is follow step-by-step the moves of an expert who has done it before. usi even mentions this in his strategy guide, where he says "...be careful though – the guide might take away the pleasure of thinking!". My sentiments exactly! No repeating by rote for me!

On the other hand, I am completely in favour of sharing ideas that help each other to shape our own strategy.

I should say that I did manage the 2 pagodas and 2 academies bit of this yesterday - but the game is one that I can't finish now, because I stupidly allowed a barb sword to take a city for one turn before I retook it. On the good side, I have now got a model for achieving UHVC 1. I just need to remember what I did and when (Ohh for an autolog in RFC!).

I definitely built the Gt Lighthouse, and I agree with Alexius08 in saying build all of your cities coastal. Well, as far as possible.
I also stocked up well in the northern cities with spearmen (as jorissimo is saying) and had some axes to counter the barbs (tho not soon enough!) and Japan.

Like in Norton II's game, India became my vassal. I think they're impressed by your military strength. Previously I had only built <just> enough spearmen to keep the horses at bay. This is much better. And Norton II, I hadn't thought of using my vassal correctly as you are doing. What a dummy I am! Of course, I can direct their research.

When it comes down to achieving things quickly, the whip seems essential (thanks, jorissimo) and I must remember this. I had to whip out the last few temples and a pagoda to meet 1000AD.

On the subject of timings, I can see a couple of things that really focus my mind.

1. Barbarians start appearing from around turn 120. I really need metals by this point, hooked up and being used to produce spears & axes.
2. The UHVC1 check occurs at turn 221. That's when I need my academies & pagodas.

I can see that I am regularly too late on the first of these. I either need to research Bronze Working and get the southern city founded earlier than I am doing, or I need to trade for Iron Working and use the iron by my 2 cities in the north. Certainly I need Bronze Working by around turn 100, and that's going to be tight. My research path has been AH, Fishing, Sailing, Writing, Masonry and then beeline for Math - Cal. I don't reach the end of that until about turn 100.
Then the question comes, who will trade me Iron Working? By that time, I will have made contact with the European civs, who are naturally at war with each other, and will get me relationship downers for trading with their enemies. Rome usually has it, and maybe Carthage, but getting them to trade it is tough. Mathematics is my best bet, probably with something else thrown in. I'll have to be lucky.

I can see from my 'good' game that I had all 8 cities founded just at AD - though my last city was inland high-production Chongqing - and I think this was the one the barbs took and I retook. Very useful city, though, and was worth building despite being inland (and not getting the GL coastal trade bonus) because it was my second highest production city apart from Beijing. I even built a pagoda there.

So, thanks for all of the food for thought. I am refining (if that's the right word) my strategy ready for another attempt.

 

[Leoreth]

Bronze Working is usually a no-brainer to research early on, because it gives you the ability to both whip and chop which is absolutely necessary to develop your cities quickly. I'd even say good slavery MM is what wins the game for China.

 

[AgedOne]

Bronze Working is usually a no-brainer to research early on, because it gives you the ability to both whip and chop which is absolutely necessary to develop your cities quickly. I'd even say good slavery MM is what wins the game for China.

Yes. I notice the earlier strategy guides for China (in particular the one by Abgeweit) make a very big deal of Bronze Working.
In particular, he says

Without it, you will always be teetering on the line between expanding too fast and expanding too slow. You will forever be attempting to keep the size of your cities down, in the process wasting all that yummy food.

and I have noticed this is true of my games with China.
Not that I ignore BW! Just that I may leave it a little late. I have been fitting it in after:
Animal Husbandry - Fishing - Sailing - Writing - Masonry - Mathematics - Calendar
which means I don't have it for the first 100 turns!
I have never had a problem with founding Confucianism and Taoism with this path (though of course I don't know how close I have come to failure) and it will be worth trying an early BW - probably just before Writing - and see if I suddenly start failing to make these religions.

 

[SilchasRuin]

Oracle Maths, then get BW, then calendar. Conf. is the only religion you have to worry about, because the Greeks and sometimes Romans like to found it. Every now and then the Romans found Taoism, but only if they survive long enough

 

[corovanrobber]

The only one opponent for Calendar is Carthage who's trying to reach it as soon as possible and even can build oracle, so don't forget them and I highly recomment not to leave Taoism for too late.

 

[AgedOne]

Well, I made it!
Having thought about getting an earlier Bronze Working this morning, I made an attempt at the game - and have just finished successfully. Strange game in some ways.

Start
I made sure of the early Bronze by going:

Animals - Fishing - Sailing - Masonry - Bronze​

and then I scared myself a little by taking time out for

Wheel - Pottery​

before getting back on the familiar track with

Writing - Mathematics - Calendar​

I also made sure I had 2 workers early on, to make the most of being able to chop out granaries and libraries.

It meant I was a bit late starting on Mathematics, about turn 95, but with libraries up in 3 cities it was pretty quick research. No trouble with Calendar also.

Cathedrals
I made big use of chopping and whipping to get everything together for spreading the 2 rels, building temples and the big temples. Achieved it by about 900AD or thereabouts.

Metals
I only just got my bronze hooked up as the first barbs were starting to appear. Very dodgy few turns as I survived against swords with archers and chariots, before the spears and axes started to come on line. It gradually looked safer, and I built up the defence force. Managed to trade Iron Working from someone (Carthage I think) and it all felt more comfortable.

Mongols
I had never got as far as facing the Mongol Hordes in my previous attempts (always failed the first UVC and abandoned) so I didn't quite know what to expect.
I began ramping up the defences as soon as I finished the cathedrals UVC. However, I didn't have engineering (for Pikemen) and so started researching it as fast as I could - but it wasn't going to get there in time. Asked for trades, but nothing. I also lost my contacts in Europe about this time, when a barb trireme sunk my galley. I tried to send my warrior from India/Persia but he died too.
Khmer declared on me, but made peace and then asked to be my vassal - which I accepted. I was about to get Ivory from them for War Elephants, but then realised that my Hanoi's borders had expanded and the Ivory was actually mine and not theirs!
I built (chopped/whipped) a force of spearmen, chok-o-nu, catapults and War Elephants in anticipation of the Mongol uprising. They all went to Beijing to wait. In fact, most of them were in the forests just outside.

The fateful day came.

Genghis politely said hello, and told me to watch out for Darius, his worst enemy.

That was it. No hordes. No uprising. We became best friends and declared on the Indians together. It was severely strange.
1400AD came around and I got a Golden Age for 2 / 3 UVCs completed.

Terracotta Army
I now made a few worrying miscalculations.
First, I thought that the next cut-off was 1500AD, and that it was going to be only 10 turns after 1400AD. Wrong (twice). It is 1600AD, and the year increments switched to 5s, so that meant 40 turns.
I had gone crazy, traded all of my metals and horses away, and switched all 8 cities onto repeat warrior builds! I was going to just make it in 10 turns.
And I did, of course, and then realised that I had 130 units and still had 30 turns for my economy to survive a huge deficit .

Luckily (or by good planning) I had a Gt Merchant which I had dropped on Japan to give me a big cash balance before I started. Otherwise this would all have ended very badly indeed.

Wobbling to the Finish
Once I realised my mistakes, I switched everything onto gold income, and thought I would sit tight until the end.
Unfortunately, I thought that a civics switch to Bureacracy/Caste/Pacifism would be good. No. Horrific. A big negative cashflow ensued, and then I noticed that I had become officially 'Unstable'. :gulp:

I still had about 20 turns to go. Kept pressing 'end turn' and crossing my fingers.
Then Hanoi split from my empire and set up an independent life!! Taking with it about 20 of my warriors .

I just had time to put it all right again. Just.
Switched civics back to something more sensible. Started building units again.

Turn by turn we crept over the finish line.
There was no further collapse. I built enough warriors. I got the victory.


So, China is now complete.
I'll have to think of my next civ to try.

 

[SilchasRuin]

Try Greece, it is a lot of fun, and the next chronologically

 

[Leoreth]

Congrats! You don't necessarily need Pikemen to face the Mongols, War Elephants (trade from India) also do well. But it seems you were lucky enough to not get attacked by him

 

[Norton II]

Good work! You were pretty lucky with the Mongols there; sometimes, they'll spawn already at war with you. But even in that case, a fair-sized stack of war elephants is all the defense you need. They're better than pikemen, really, since they're not weak against the Mongols' crossbowmen.

You actually don't need to trade horses away to be able to build warriors; just trade or gift the metals. In fact, I think you can still build warriors if you've researched gunpowder as long as you don't have any metal. Speaking of metal, if you want to be absolutely sure you have copper in time for the barbs, settle Haojing early. It's right next to the copper, and it's coastal, so you don't have to worry about roads (for the copper, either, since it and the city are on a river). Though I suppose the city on the hill between the two mountains (I forget the name) would work, too, since the river extends to the coast.

 

[AgedOne]

Try Greece, it is a lot of fun, and the next chronologically

Nice idea! I will definitely have a look at that next.

Congrats! You don't necessarily need Pikemen to face the Mongols, War Elephants (trade from India) also do well. But it seems you were lucky enough to not get attacked by him

Cheers! I didn't think I would have the ivory in time, which was why I was building spearmen like crazy in a cold sweat . Then I got the ivory, and switched to WElephants. I had read about them being the best deterrent in Abgeweit's strategy guide.

Good work! You were pretty lucky with the Mongols there; sometimes, they'll spawn already at war with you. But even in that case, a fair-sized stack of war elephants is all the defense you need. They're better than pikemen, really, since they're not weak against the Mongols' crossbowmen.

You actually don't need to trade horses away to be able to build warriors; just trade or gift the metals. In fact, I think you can still build warriors if you've researched gunpowder as long as you don't have any metal. Speaking of metal, if you want to be absolutely sure you have copper in time for the barbs, settle Haojing early. It's right next to the copper, and it's coastal, so you don't have to worry about roads (for the copper, either, since it and the city are on a river). Though I suppose the city on the hill between the two mountains (I forget the name) would work, too, since the river extends to the coast.

Yes. I couldn't believe my luck when Genghis just smiled. I kept thinking that it would happen a turn or two later - like Cyrus often did to me when I was India or Babylon. Weird. Truly weird.

Of course! I really didn't think that one through did I? Warriors are available when no metals, and have nothing to do with horses.

Haojing. I think it was my 4th city. I went Beijing - Sanshan - Shanghai - Haojing. Looking back at the saves, I can see that it was settled in 685BC, which is turn 100-110 somewhere. I can't see why I was so slow getting everything hooked up before the barbs arrived around turn 125.
Here's my placement (from an earlier save when I still had all of my cities!)

- Hanoi is underneath the screen-surround

It looks like the city you were referring to between the mountains is Chongqing



Cheers, all!

 

[Norton II]

The city I was referrring to wans't one you actually built; it was 2S1W of Chongqing. I think it's called Luoyang, but I wouldn't swear to it.

One thing to keep in mind if you do Greece next is that you no longer start with metal casting, so you can't get machinery with the Oracle. I usually use the Oracle for metal casting now while researching aesthetics (metal casting's more expensive).

 

[AgedOne]

I'm really intending a new thread to cover some Classical Civs (Greece, Carthage, Persia, Rome probably) but I had to show this picture.
This was a first try at Greece. Not a serious attempt, but a look around to get the lie of the land. What did I find, but ...

...Babylon had been wiped!! Either by barbarians or Independents. I don't know.

This isn't really a good thing for me. I could really do with a working Babylon for my own purposes.

This start was 'non-standard' for other reasons, too. Notice my chariot? Well, there are two of them, seemingly popped from a hut. Also - the hut is still there and now cannot be popped by units walking into it!! Screwy!

 

[deanej]

Babylon being wiped out by barbs is actually very common... so common that it's rare for it to survive! Though being gone that early is a little strange.

I don't see any huts in that screenshot. Are you sure you're not confusing a part of the unit for a hut?