My Civ4 Modding Letdown

[Figaro]

Before buying Civ4 I was promised it would be the best version of the franchise for Modding yet. Everyone seemed excited on how "unlike other game developers, Firaxis are encouraging modifications!" - well this has all been something of a lie.

In Civ3, we had the CivEditor. That was a pre-packaged tool with which we could design all scenarios, but also design new units, technologies, terrain types (not the graphics admittedly, but all their in-game effects) - it could all be done with no specialist knowledge at all. Anyone could quite easilly combine the various effects of various mods together as well as designing their own.

Civ4, while unquestionably adding more to the basic game itself, is a LOT harder to Mod than the previous versions (Civ2 and 3 anyway, I never played the original) - nobody seems to be able to produce their own animated leaderheads, merely re-skins of the original ones. There are precious few new units (though those that are are really excellent, congrats to everyone who's managed to make any), though arguably as graphics improve, designing your own is always going to get harder (even I could design Civ2 units). But worst of all, gone now is the ability to do lots of the work yourself. With Civ3, once you had a basic grasp of how the various text files worked, you could modify anything with no technical knowledge. Now it seems modding is limited to only those with the right knowhow.

So this is a big thumbs down for the game developers, for, despite having done so much so well, missing the point as far as modding goes - its not about how moddable it is, but about how easy it is.

Just my opinion.

 

[Kael]

Before buying Civ4 I was promised it would be the best version of the franchise for Modding yet. Everyone seemed excited on how "unlike other game developers, Firaxis are encouraging modifications!" - well this has all been something of a lie.

In Civ3, we had the CivEditor. That was a pre-packaged tool with which we could design all scenarios, but also design new units, technologies, terrain types (not the graphics admittedly, but all their in-game effects) - it could all be done with no specialist knowledge at all. Anyone could quite easilly combine the various effects of various mods together as well as designing their own.

Civ4, while unquestionably adding more to the basic game itself, is a LOT harder to Mod than the previous versions (Civ2 and 3 anyway, I never played the original) - nobody seems to be able to produce their own animated leaderheads, merely re-skins of the original ones. There are precious few new units (though those that are are really excellent, congrats to everyone who's managed to make any), though arguably as graphics improve, designing your own is always going to get harder (even I could design Civ2 units). But worst of all, gone now is the ability to do lots of the work yourself. With Civ3, once you had a basic grasp of how the various text files worked, you could modify anything with no technical knowledge. Now it seems modding is limited to only those with the right knowhow.

So this is a big thumbs down for the game developers, for, despite having done so much so well, missing the point as far as modding goes - its not about how moddable it is, but about how easy it is.

Just my opinion.

Unfortunatly easy and powerful are often opposed goals. Firaxis had to make tons of decisions in exactly how they implemented the modability, and by and large they choose power over simplicity. They figured that in the end modders would rather have access to more functions and closer code access than an easier interface.

That said, Firaxis did say (I think it was Soren) that he wished they had time to make a mod interface. So they admit that they wished they would have been able to provide that.

But it is all a balance between power and simplicity. I have seen a few mod interaces for civ4, and although they look very cool and easy to use they are absolutly worthless to me because I have modified schema and i dont use the default attributes anymore (which an interface tool assumes you have in place). So in that case they choose to give us the power of changing schema so we can do a bunch of things we wouldnt have been able to do otherwise, but they had to give up being able to make any assumptions about our mod (which an interface tool would make).

So I wrote my own interface tool, which will be helpful to anyone who wants to make changes to my mod, but will be largely useless in making changes to any other mod.

That said I released the first version of FfH a month after Civ4 came out. I wasn't on any qu teams and didnt have any internal access at that time so I was getting all of this new the same as everyone else. I had also never programmed anything, never heard of python, and never used photoshop prior to getting civ4. So just the fact that was able to make a mod which inlcuded (in my opinion) a lot of game changing stuff seems to indicate that the modability was there (and that there are a ton of great people here that I continue to learn from).

 

[dalek master]

Civ4 is better for modding, than civ3 atleast. Editing XML files may be a little dragging sometimes, but you can do a whole host of stuff you coudln't have done.
I had to learn by myself as I go, and look where I am......
well, nowhere, but that's not the point.

The XML files are easy to find and can be changed by anyone not scared to do it, Python isn't easy, but hey I wrote a general knowledge quiz for IDLE the other day! Yes, it more or less stops at that for anyone like me who s***s themselves looking at C++, but the buzz I got when I saw that mars was atlast a terrain on the map was the best I think I could get in front of my computer

noone said it would be easy...

 

[shackleton]

The thing that really bugs me is the cross dependancy. You can't just stack up mods and it's a real pain to mesh mods together, or remove elements that you don't want.

Not saying its a let down as such. Just a bit of a shot in the dark as to when someone will make the perfect mod for me Or, failing that, it'll probably be another 6 months before I've got the game playing how I want it to.

 

[Aranor]

I would agrre that the civ3 interface was easier to use and navigate. But the modding power of civ4 has barely been touched! As it is I can only mod in XML but look at what some of the python guys are pumping out. I mean TheLopez's ModComps are amazing, the kind of stuff that I would expect fraxis themselves to produce. Yes civ4 is alittle more complicated but as dalek master and Kael have both said XML is relatively easy to use and not overly hard to learn.

 

[TheLopez]

There are precious few new units (though those that are are really excellent, congrats to everyone who's managed to make any), though arguably as graphics improve, designing your own is always going to get harder (even I could design Civ2 units).

Have you not seen the units sub-forum here? Suuuure there are only a few hundred precious new units in there.

But worst of all, gone now is the ability to do lots of the work yourself. With Civ3, once you had a basic grasp of how the various text files worked, you could modify anything with no technical knowledge. Now it seems modding is limited to only those with the right knowhow.

Well, have you not seen all of the XML files that you can change? Surely you have the ability to open those files in notepad, like any other text file, and edit them. Those who don't have the knowhow to use notepad should maybe just stick to playing the game...

So this is a big thumbs down for the game developers, for, despite having done so much so well, missing the point as far as modding goes - its not about how moddable it is, but about how easy it is.

Just my opinion.

I agree with Kael, there is a huge trade-off between how easy the game is to mod and the flexability to mod the entire game. Honestly, as a developer myself, I was happy with the level of interfaces initially provided. But now I am in coders heaven with the newly released SDK and the power it provides modders to change the functionality of the game.

Honestly, when has something worthwhile been easy to do?

Does making some type of useful mod take some skills? Yes... but it isn't required. Before Civ4 I had no experience with Python, as Kael, but I was able to dive into it and learn the language in a matter of hours.

Have you made any efforts to investigate what the modding possibilities are in Civ4? Opened any of the XML files? Python files?

EDIT: I'm sorry if I am a bit harsh but, there are plenty of people modding Civ4, like Aranor, who did not have any experience in python, coding, XML, etc. prior to modding Civ4 and they seem to be doing just fine. So when I see a post like this it makes me question how much time has been invested in investigating the modding potential of the game.

EDIT2: Sure, it is easier for someone like me who has been programming for over 20 years, and professionally developing software for over 5 years but that does not mean someone can't take the game and learn how to mod it.

BTW, thanks for the kind words Aranor.

 

[Figaro]

But I don't get why it can't be both powerful and easy to use - perhaps a better interface utility thingy for the basic stuff but still the ability to edit the coding if you really want to change stuff.

EDIT: I'm sorry if I am a bit harsh but, there are plenty of people modding Civ4, like Aranor, who did not have any experience in python, coding, XML, etc. prior to modding Civ4 and they seem to be doing just fine. So when I see a post like this it makes me question how much time has been invested in investigating the modding potential of the game.

Well all I've been told online is that without prior experience its completely pointless. This is the first time I've been told that good 'old text editing is involved - but seriously, how easy is XML to get into? Because what I miss, as shackleton says, is the ability to custom make my own mod that combines the elements *I* like by mixing and matching the components of various mods... not do anything obscenely complicated, just merge other people's work together. As it is I have to sit around till the perfect mod for appears, which is impossibly unlikely to happen (for one, nobody seems willing to add Wales as a civ, despite the Bretons and Scots getting a mention).

 

[Padmewan]

I will at least echo Shackleton that the modding tools should have included a cleaner way to join mods together. I'm thinking of Neverwinter Night's mod approach -- admittedly, that was in many ways at a much "higher" level of coding. I know there are efforts to get mod-makers to use common standards and toolsets, but it still isn't drag-and-drop easy, at least not yet.

 

[TheLopez]

But I don't get why it can't be both powerful and easy to use - perhaps a better interface utility thingy for the basic stuff but still the ability to edit the coding if you really want to change stuff.

Personally, I prefer to dive into things head first, even if there isn't a nice interface to use.

Well all I've been told online is that without prior experience its completely pointless.

Go jump off a bridge...

You're still reading this? Why didn't you go jump a bridge like I told you? You want to know why? Because you are a smart person and reasoned that jumping off a bridge might not be good for your health... You may be asking yourself why in the heck is he writing using this metaphore. We'll its because you basically did "jump off the bridge" when someone told you that:

without prior experience its completely pointless.

Please, before you believe something someone tells you online you should keep this saying in mind:

Trust, but verify

This is the first time I've been told that good 'old text editing is involved - but seriously, how easy is XML to get into?

Have you ever written HTML using notepad? If you have then it is that easy. Though you might want to get an XML tool like XMLSpy from Altova: http://www.altova.com/ to help you with viewing the XML.

As it is I have to sit around till the perfect mod for appears, which is impossibly unlikely to happen (for one, nobody seems willing to add Wales as a civ, despite the Bretons and Scots getting a mention).

There is no such thing as a "perfect" mod since "perfect" is such a subjective term, but if you are willing to provide a list of mods that you would like to see combined besides the religion mods listed in your other thread I think someone might be able to help you and give you your version of a "perfect" mod.

Well, I have looked at all the threads you have started and did not see a request for a Wales civ, so it is unfair for you to complain about it not being added. Have you considered creating it yourself?

 

[The Great Apple]

XML modding is as simple as changing numbers in a text file. The only struggle is knowing quite what each of the variables does - most are quite obvious, but some are really quite cryptic.

You can also do alot more things with XML modding in Civ 4 then you could ever do with the editor in Civ 3.

As for graphics - you couldn't import units/leaderhead graphics into Civ 3 until about a year after the original release. For about 2 months now we've had the tools to make either, fully animated. The main issue is the cost of the base 3D program you need to be able to change such things... although there are people working on a blender script to export to nif (animations still don't work at the moment).

 

[Kael]

I will at least echo Shackleton that the modding tools should have included a cleaner way to join mods together. I'm thinking of Neverwinter Night's mod approach -- admittedly, that was in many ways at a much "higher" level of coding. I know there are efforts to get mod-makers to use common standards and toolsets, but it still isn't drag-and-drop easy, at least not yet.

To allow mods to be automatically "joined" would require them to comply with a strict framework. The strict framework would limit the flexibility of the mods. Its just a choice of flexibility over simplicity.

Think of it this way. Civ4 is so modable that you can make different games with it. You can makes Heroes of Might and Magic, you can make Pirates, you can make Railroad Tycoon. I don't mean games that borrow the concepts and atmosphere of those games, I mean you could make those games. You could make a real time game with the Civ4 engine if you wanted.

Now compare that to Morrowind or Neverwinter Nights, games that offered awesome modability but they were modability on a common framework. That framework made integration and common tools a lot easier, but limited what could be done (and how easily it could be accomplished).

If Firaxis provides the building blocks then you are limited in what you can create, if you are able to make the blocks yourselves then you have an entirely new set of options open to you, but it also means that you have to understand how the blocks works, hwo to build them and fit them together. And I don't mean that the units and buildings are the "blocks" but rather the schema elements, functions, and processes that make the game work.

 

[snarko]

Well all I've been told online is that without prior experience its completely pointless. This is the first time I've been told that good 'old text editing is involved - but seriously, how easy is XML to get into?

I don't think I had ever seen an xml file when I got civ 4. It took me seconds to understand how it works. Problably take you longer if you're not as used to computers, but still. If you can read and write you can fairly easily learn to modify XMLs. The only problems with XML I can think of that are difficult is when you want to do something which require modifying multiple files (slightly difficult) and adding new variables to the xml files (very difficult without programming experience, requires using the SDK).

Then there's python and the SDK if xml editing isn't enough for your mod. Those are difficult, yes. But they are also way beyond anything you could do with the civ 3 editor.

 

[TheLopez]

I don't think I had ever seen an xml file when I got civ 4. It took me seconds to understand how it works. Problably take you longer if you're not as used to computers, but still. If you can read and write you can fairly easily learn to modify XMLs. The only problems with XML I can think of that are difficult is when you want to do something which require modifying multiple files (slightly difficult) and adding new variables to the xml files (very difficult without programming experience, requires using the SDK).

Then there's python and the SDK if xml editing isn't enough for your mod. Those are difficult, yes. But they are also way beyond anything you could do with the civ 3 editor.

Well put snarko, well put.

 

[Agent 009]

Before buying Civ4 I was promised it would be the best version of the franchise for Modding yet. Everyone seemed excited on how "unlike other game developers, Firaxis are encouraging modifications!" - well this has all been something of a lie.

In Civ3, we had the CivEditor. That was a pre-packaged tool with which we could design all scenarios, but also design new units, technologies, terrain types (not the graphics admittedly, but all their in-game effects) - it could all be done with no specialist knowledge at all. Anyone could quite easilly combine the various effects of various mods together as well as designing their own.

Civ4, while unquestionably adding more to the basic game itself, is a LOT harder to Mod than the previous versions (Civ2 and 3 anyway, I never played the original) - nobody seems to be able to produce their own animated leaderheads, merely re-skins of the original ones. There are precious few new units (though those that are are really excellent, congrats to everyone who's managed to make any), though arguably as graphics improve, designing your own is always going to get harder (even I could design Civ2 units). But worst of all, gone now is the ability to do lots of the work yourself. With Civ3, once you had a basic grasp of how the various text files worked, you could modify anything with no technical knowledge. Now it seems modding is limited to only those with the right knowhow.

So this is a big thumbs down for the game developers, for, despite having done so much so well, missing the point as far as modding goes - its not about how moddable it is, but about how easy it is.

Just my opinion.

Well, I have to say the Civ 3 was a much simpler game and thus came with a decent tool. However, Civ 4 is much more complex as a game due to it being 3d and released only 6 months ago. If Firaxis were to put an editor into Civ 4 like Civ 3 had it would have been as much work for them as the game itself. It would just not be worth the time.

You are right there are too many restrictions in regards to animations of the 3d models. I can't make them because I don't have 3ds Max. However, I do find that Civ 4 has many more change possibilities than Civ 3 ever had.

IMO, it isn't about ease as much as it is about modding options. Also I am not a programmer at all and I have been able to make my own mod which is about 6 weeks in developement. It is almost a totally different game. This is all thanks to the XML format which isn't too hard to understand.

What I suggest is to try examining the xml and python files, change a few things in one of them, start with something simple, and I'll assure you you will figure it all out.

 

[wotan321]

Kael's early comment that noted we have to trade off ease of use for adaptability is the bottom line. I share Figaro's nostalgic memories of the Civ3 editor. There was a windows interface, drop down boxes, you typed in numbers in boxes....and in Civ2, you could edit events in a text file, there were a handful of triggers, a handful of events, one file.... easy to learn and simple to implement. I miss that too.

But also remember none of those spiffy editing tools came with the original game, all came out via x-packs later on. I remember going through a savegame file with a hex editor changing attributes for units....xml is easier than that. Folks on these boards who have learned some Python are putting up code and tutorials that are very helpful to those of us who do not have the time or will to learn it in depth.

What I suspect is that, as we are seeing, over time people will build handy interfaces for editing files, and the range of great changes will increase, as will the ease of modding files. We are just impatient, and do recall the ease of modding earlier games.

My one hope is that someone soon, or Firaxis with the X-pack, will give us a useful events editor or in depth tutorial, since that is where the games can really evolve.

 

[Wyz_sub10]

Unfortunatly easy and powerful are often opposed goals.

This really sums it up, IMO. You can't have your cake and eat it too - if you want the game to truly be flexible from a modding perspective, you have to have a certain level of complexity.

Take "Neverwinter Nights" from Bioware - extremely moddable, flexible game. But you need to know (or learn) a bit of 'C', and you need to take the time to understand the file structure.

As for CivEdit...sorry, it was crap. Adding units required a lot more effort than just using the editor, you couldn't auto-check your errors, and you were limited in what you could do.

 

[Figaro]

Everything besides using the editor just required making sure files were in the right places. Initially confusing but as soon as you got the hang of it you could add a new unit every minute.

TheLopez - I took your advice, and dived in, combining three different religious mods. I didn't *quite* smash my skull on the floor of the shallow end - the game doesn't crash when I try to load my new mod. But there's lots of bits missing. The XML files are a lot more complicated than the old Civ3 Text files were, but I think I understand the basics...

Now all I need is for the Inquisitor not to look like a spy...

 

[TheLopez]

Now all I need is for the Inquisitor not to look like a spy...

Well how can he not? She is so seeexy.

Try fiddling around with the inquisitor's see invisible tags.

 

[Padmewan]

To allow mods to be automatically "joined" would require them to comply with a strict framework. The strict framework would limit the flexibility of the mods. Its just a choice of flexibility over simplicity.

I wonder if there isn't a way for a modkit to create a "kiddie pool" inside the mod possibilities. It seems like a lot people would be happy just tweaking here and there, but what you find is that the XML dependencies can really trip you up -- a lot of them are actually layered on top of each other. A mod utility that auto-propogates changes down those layers might be useful.

But probably not useful enough to create. Anyway, I agree with everyone here that with enough perseverence, and some some computer savvy, anyone can mod Civ4.