My Rant On Tourism

[JimboOmega]

This is entirely untrue. Ideological unhappiness is a function of the difference between influence levels. If two civs have different ideologies but the same level of influence over each other, neither will have any ideological unhappiness from the other.

I disagree. In a game with only two civs, I'm pretty sure that if both are popular with each other, both will have a level of ideology unhappiness.

Add a third civ, and their tourism competes to influence the other two. But in the tooltip you'll never see a symbol for your own tourism on yourself.

I'm not 100% sure; has anyone tested this?

I wonder how things would be if Revolutionary Wave increases unhappiness by 1 each turn. For the civ, either fix culture/tourism or happiness, otherwise the hole gets deeper.

Also, make the receiving penalties from ideological pressure not as sharp.

Yes. I don't like how easy it is for the ai to sit on revolutionary wave just because they have a lot of spare happiness. Maybe 1 per turn isn't the solution, bit it's a problem I hate. I like the idea of other penalties that would slow down other victory options.

If the dig site was within your borders, just create a landmark.

I'm kind of stunned at how much more effective landmarks are than great works. Mine are popping out 15 culture; and even more tourism (20 or so, with airports, hotels, and broadcast towers)

 

[Yzman]

I disagree. In a game with only two civs, I'm pretty sure that if both are popular with each other, both will have a level of ideology unhappiness.

Add a third civ, and their tourism competes to influence the other two. But in the tooltip you'll never see a symbol for your own tourism on yourself.

I'm not 100% sure; has anyone tested this?



Yes. I don't like how easy it is for the ai to sit on revolutionary wave just because they have a lot of spare happiness. Maybe 1 per turn isn't the solution, bit it's a problem I hate. I like the idea of other penalties that would slow down other victory options.



I'm kind of stunned at how much more effective landmarks are than great works. Mine are popping out 15 culture; and even more tourism (20 or so, with airports, hotels, and broadcast towers)

You are incorrect. The unhappiness is based on differences in level, as was said previously. This means that 2 civs that are both popular with each other will not spread unhappiness to each other. The 3rd civ is independent and would be rated the same way. This is easy enough to figure out by looking at the tool tip and pressure by player.

Basically, if you are the cultural victory leader, you will not experience any unhappiness at all or if all of the people ahead of you share your ideology, or at least enough to counteract the others influencing you.

 

[Zenstrive]

There should be bonus to tourism (both ways) if one civ is connected to others (could be capital to capital) through roads.

 

[shaglio]

Tourism isn't defensive; only culture is. Tourism is sort of defensive for other civs of your same ideology if you are actually trying to work with them. But it doesn't protect you at all.

In my current game I'm influential on 5 of 7, with 6 soon to fall.

And what did I get for my efforts? I had two cities flip in the middle of a continent on which I had no presence - but did have enemies. Both were conquered before they got out of resistance, one by a CS. No civs changed ideologies.

#7 will never happen; once he got great firewall of china... I'll be lucky to get to popular with him. If I want a cultural win it will come from lots of nukes and lots of war to crush #7.

I'm producing around 1000 tourism a turn (although that is internet-multiplied) and it's rising fast, but it doesn't matter. I won't catch that last civ any time soon.

1000 tourism per turn!?!?!? That means your Great Musicians are worth 10,000 Tourism. Go do a couple concert tours in his land and you'll be caught up in no time!

 

[Ayestes]

I do think there should be some tangible benefits to having high Tourism. The obvious one would be gold, but then I don't think you need anymore late game gold then is already produced. So that one is a bit hard to really consider.

 

[JimboOmega]

1000 tourism per turn!?!?!? That means your Great Musicians are worth 10,000 Tourism. Go do a couple concert tours in his land and you'll be caught up in no time!

It's an epic-length game, so he has the culture he's accumulated across the whole game.

His empire "just happens" to be only one city now, but he's still got like, 120k culture from the whole game. A few great musicians (thanks, reformation belief!) are swimming over to that one city he has left, and if they can get in, I should be most of the way there.

Granted it's closer to 1.3k tourism/turn now and once his cities come out of resistance, it'll be even higher.

Still, it's a victory lap at this point because I've conquered almost everybody. If my tourism was 0 I'd still be sure of victory. As I feared my attempt at a culture victory turned into a de-facto domination victory.

My rush to get internet did give me the tech for nuclear subs, so I got a good laugh in as a huge fleet of battleships, carriers, and embarked units got completely devastated. Sigh.

Even if I'd sat on my hands after crushing the AI horde, I'd never have gotten a culture victory; I'd have had to go the space path. Just too much to catch up.

 

[JimboOmega]

I do think there should be some tangible benefits to having high Tourism. The obvious one would be gold, but then I don't think you need anymore late game gold then is already produced. So that one is a bit hard to really consider.

Yeah, I'd agree. My excessive late game gold usually seems to make winning a diplomatic victory too easy.

 

[kb27787]

Well, you just listed the reasons why I think it's generally a joke - note I said generally. There might be a handful of times when it's actually useful, but I haven't encountered one myself.

1) It spends forever in resistance.

2) The city can land you yourself in a giant unhappy hole - or edge you closer to it anyway and you have no way to prevent it

3) When it happens the game is usually already over for the civ losing the city, and for the civ gaining it, it often is also quite meaningless - you have already won. In fact, if a city sized 20 city flips, you are quite likely less than 20 turns away from victory, or you are on your way to conquering that civ with the unassailable culture buffer that you can't beat with your tourism.

4) You are assuming that there's an AI with the gold/willingness to take it. Often that's not the case. Sure, you can just sell it for whatever, even peanuts, but then it sort of defeats the purpose of the city flipping in the first place, no?

As it is the city flipping is a mechanism that seems to only trigger when a civ is already a runaway winner - usually you. It does usually nothing for civs that are still vying for winning because it doesn't happen - which is where the effect will actually come in handy. If revolutionary wave is what it sounds like, then there ought to be more severe consequences that happens continually (and probably ramping up gradually if the situation is not resolved) instead of just being something that is easily suppressed with a lot of smiles.

1)&2) That's why I said sell it, unless it has a wonder you want.

3) true, but sometimes game's not over yet and this might just give you the last spurt to stop that DV by Alex before your CV; sometimes this happens in AIs who overexpand and don't really need that much pressure, far from influential level, to put them seriously in the red. Game may still be several dozen turns away from being won.

4) I'm sure there are a lot of things you trade it for (and you can move all the great works out of the city before you sell it) the AI never seems to lack gold in my experience anyway, but most of the time they will offer all their gold, gpt, and luxes for a size 20 city. Remember that you got it for "free" on your way to CV and if you sold it to the original civ, who dumbly gave you all his luxes,... guess what... another one might flip again and this time you can sell to another civ because you just bankrupted the first civ... you can also add war bribes to your offer.