Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by AvianBritish, Jul 26, 2020.
Oh now that looks fun!
The concept that +4 faith x 8-12 cities is only 32-48faith per turn is off-base. What the OGO gives you is LOTS OF EARLY FAITH, which snowballs. It snowballs into early pantheons, Classical golden ages, more faith-generation capabilities, and a very strong faith-based gameplan that you get to set up very early. And then, once you're set up, those OGO's give you a place to put the basically-free relics you're generating.
I need to play around with the other Societies to be sure, but yeah, it wouldn't shock me if Voidsingers were the most OP society.
I generally agree with the sentiments here, though I think Sanguine is arguably more OP than Voidsingers in a vacuum only because successfully warmongering has always been the most powerful way to snowball in Civ 6, even if it's not particularly appealing to many of us.
The main problem with Hermetic Order's bonuses are that they are only a minor benefit in the early game. In some hypothetical world where it's the end game and you look at how much power each society is giving, sure they might shine, but that's not how Civ 6 works. Late bonuses in Civ 6 have always been inconsequential.
Owls of Minerva is actually the power level I wish all the societies were balanced around. An extra policy card early is strong and can really change the early metagame. Extra envoys and trade routes are solid but in no way game-breaking. Every bonus here just makes you feel stronger and more versatile without breaking the game. I wish all of the societies worked this way.
A suggestion I would have for Voidsingers is to change their Old God Obelisk bonus to +1 faith per promotion to their governor. It'd still end up at +4, but would have a far more balanced +1 in the ancient era. This is still strong enough to make them appealing in my opinion.
So Toa and Vampire debuffs stack (Tier 3 Sanguine ability):
Also if a vampire castle is pillaged you need a vampire with a charge to build a new one. A builder can clear the ruined castle. Vampires get 2 build charges, but you may use one to clear woods etc in neutral territory. But if building in your own territory save the charge as if the Castle is pillaged you will need it. I don't know if a vampire with a build charge can repair a castle all I know is a vampire with no charges cannot, nor can a builder. I removed mine anyway as I have much better places now, and my only vampire with a build charge until the Atomic era is half a world away.
I did not notice they had charges. That is really crap...
No, it doesn't. You don't get that Faith early because you don't have cities and Obelisks early. You get that Faith gradually as your cities come online and build Obelisks. So, by turn 100, you're probably at 8-10 cities and 32-40 Faith. That's not really early.
I guess the calculation might be different if you're on a conquest spree and using the AI's Monuments, which turn into Obelisks. But then, vampires are probably more fun.
You'll almost certainly have a pantheon before you have an Obelisk. Even with the extra Faith, you're unlikely to build a Monument in the first 30-35 turns. Sure, maybe if you get a bunch of Industrial city states and you have tons of room to expand and you're playing on Prince or something. But otherwise, you'll be focused on expansion. Your second city can build an Obelisk, certainly. But you'll have a pantheon by then.
Of course, the Obelisk doesn't help you get a golden age. You still have to earn that on your own. Nothing about Voidsingers makes it easier to earn a golden age.
But, let's say that you do earn a classical golden age. Maybe you've got ~3-4 cities already and they're producing 12-16 Faith from the Obelisks. I guess that's OK? Not enough to do much with monumentality, though. You still need other Faith sources to really make it work.
Look, nobody is saying that this is a bad ability. It's certainly not! It's pretty good! But it's not game breaking, overpowered, or whatever other exaggerated nonsense I keep reading.
Free? The first Cultist is 110 Faith. You get 4 Faith per turn from the Void Relic in most cases, so that's 28 turns to pay itself off. Every Cultist after the first costs more. Also, you can't get the Cultists until Industrial Era, at which point they aren't really all that useful unless you have Reliquaries or something. Even then, you're probably better off spending your Faith on Rock Bands, if you can.
Better to use those slots for other early great works that you otherwise couldn't use, I think. Artists that don't theme with your other Artists, Musicians before you get Broadcast Towers, etc. Sure, fill in the rest later with Void Relics, but 1) they aren't free, and 2) eh, they're OK.
There are exceptions, of course. There always are exceptions. But, for most civilizations in most games, Voidsingers are "great, not broken".
The Sanguine Order is a pathway to certain abilities some would deem...unnatural. Thirty-three production from one tile is insane.
Definite tier list here:
S - Voidsingers, especially for the AI
A - Sanguine Pact and Owls of Minerva
D - Hermetic Order
I defintely agree with this list when it comes to AI. However, I think for the player Sanguine Pact is equally good. The vampire unit itself is extremely useful ancient era in controlling barbarians. With well planned Classical Era military campaign my vampire can pillage to stay on the front lines the whole time and get permanently more powerful. Then Medieval tier is 2 castles which a player should have no trouble using to add 30f/30p to the capital. That's a lot of freedom to build units and wonders. Or projects!
If I'm going to be building up a faith economy or using relics as a strategy the yes Voidsingers is a must-have. If I'm going to conquer I want the early bloodsucking unit. If I"m going to make pretty fields of yields with Mekewaps or Alcazars or Terrace farms then I want those Vampire castles please! Imagine one surrounded by Moai. Or in a Petra city with Nazca lines everywhere? A Jungle full of luxuries and Chichen Itza? Moar candy for the Capital. Think I'll start building Apadana more often....
Haven't tried the Owls, but imagine what Dido/Mansa Musa/Poundmaker can do with 2x as many trade routes, and extra policy slots omg yes please. Also is it not stupid easy with Owls to Suze every CS by the Renaissance? Then the CH I'm spamming gets me some culture? Hokay! The Return of the Harbour Triangle!
I put them as A because they are more map dependent than Voidsingers. On larger maps, the vampire's incredibly slow speed begins to hurt, and the Owls rely on water for maximisation. Of course neither are as bad as Hermetic, who are massively map dependent (and you cannot even see this until you join!), and have insanely weak tier 1 bonuses.
I mean it seems like the AI is way, way more likely to get Void. This would make sense if they just accepted the first one they got, because that's way more likely to proc than the other ones.
And after playing Vampires, they have the same kind of deal - except for me the blood pact bonuses start to fall off. Another vampire is pretty good, another castle by the industrial age is meh, but that just pales in comparison to spamming out cultists
Can you work the castle tile and get the yields both on the capital and on this city or is it unworkable? I still didn't play with the Sanguine Society to test it.
No, the castle tile itself displays no yields (they get "teleoported" to the capital) and can't be worked:
I think this thread just goes to show that we're all too quick to shout 'OMG xx is so OP!'. Aside from the Hermetic Order, which is undoubtedly a bit disappointing, the other three are all valid choices, it just depends on your Civ, the map you rolled, and your particular strategy for the game, which is exactly how it should be.
About vampires and their immortality:
You can eliminate your vampires permanently by sacrificing them with soothsayers. I'm curious if AI is aware of it.
After a few false starts, I've only had one playthrough, standard map settings, rolled Germany nabbed Voidsingers not knowing what to expect. Seeing my starting location and civ, planned to go for a science victory, with no intention of playing a faith-based game.
The obelisk made a pantheon (fishing boats) and religion (synagogues) unplanned for benefits, and with only one holy site (and the OG obelisks) was banking up lots of faith. Spain came for me early (weird, maybe a religion thing?), so I wiped them out (3 cities) and had lots of area to settle. So when I hit the monumentality golden age, my settler city (ancestral hall, magnus with provision), pumped out tons of 'free' settlers for me, whilst still being able to build infrastructure in that city. The synergy was beautiful.
At that point it was a runaway, though I'll add that using cultists to flip Japan's border cities was a fun mechanic to play with, albeit unnecessary by that point.
Not sure if that's OP, but it was hella fun. Looking forward to trying the others (except Hermetic Order since none of my favourite map scripts are updated to handle Ley Lines - though reading this thread that may not be a bad thing )
I finally found a map with enough Ley Lines to make the Hermetic Order worthwhile. In the late game I've even founded a couple cities with nothing but Snow tiles because the Ley Lines were sufficiently desirable--one of those cities has three Ley Lines within its borders and a fourth just beyond (but still close enough for adjacency bonuses should I choose to use it). The second only has one--the real temptation for that city was needing more Oil...
I just had the owls of Minerva secret society and I got to the atomic age with all of its cards filled out but I didn't get anything in return (maybe because I used the Switch version). However, I did use the bank replacement UB which gave that extra culture.
I also enjoyed Voidsingers since they add that faith for the monument even if it takes longer to build. I made the ancient/classical wonder pantheon and the autocracy civic along with Corvee to build so many wonders. I was building wonders at 15%+10%+15%=40%! It was such a nice start.
Again, still playing, Owls of Minerva is fun with Cree and all of the trade route boosting involved. Not sure about the final level +3% gold earning though . . . if you ain't spending it why have it?
I agree the Hermetic order needs a buff, and ley lines should be more distributed around the map to make them more consistent.
Ley lines should provide something earlier, if they're unwilling to combine their tier 3 ability with their first ability, something like +2 science and gold to the tiles adjacent to ley lines.
Or do something crazy, like having their unique university make all great scientist slots provide +2 science/prod/gold/great person points if the district is next to a ley line.
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