Mycenae - What if...

[Amenhotep7]

What if Mycenae, that somewhat advanced, proto-Greek culture, never fell? What if somehow they were able to repel Dorian invasion? What if their population and literacy rates never fell? Would they have been a powerful kingdom, or would outside forces ultimately destroy them? Would Greek culture as we know today be different, or would it be the same? I believe the Mycenaeans were more united, so the Greek city-states probably wouldn't have come about...I don't know much about Mycenae, so I'll leave this open to discussion to those head-historical-honchos.

 

[Xen]

to be honest, i dont see how the political and military sitiuation would have changed much, religion would have stayed the same for the most part, which almost assures the rise of western philosiphy... so honestlly, while some actual event might differ greatlly, i have a hard time seeing how an over all effect would be too differnt...

 

[onejayhawk]

It comes down to whether you believe in individuals or in trends. Would Greek philosophy have risen to the heights it did in a world where there was not Socrates, Plato and Aristotle. Perhaps there would have been similar genius, but then you must ask another question. Would the key philosophical questions which motivated the genesis of science in Europe have arisen, and would the effect have been the same.

The Arab/Syrian culture had it all in late Roman to early midevel times: art, mathematics, science, poetry, literature, diplomacy. Yet they did not advance; they regressed. Why? Why did science in Europe gain the upper hand, when at the time of, say, the Sun King, Louis XIV (IIRC) it was a narrow thing that it retain credibility?

Its an old Science Fiction question. Are the lines of advance highly dependant on the situation, or is genius more important than setting.

J

 

[pandora]

Originally posted by Xen
to be honest, i dont see how the political and military sitiuation would have changed much, religion would have stayed the same for the most part, which almost assures the rise of western philosiphy... so honestlly, while some actual event might differ greatlly, i have a hard time seeing how an over all effect would be too differnt...

oh many things might have changed. for example mycenae had a totally diferent (actually more "modern") perspektive on sex roles.
compared to mycenaean beliefs the men of hellinistic myths were stupid muscles while the women tended to be smart and/or evil and conspirative.
it werent the christians that inventet our traditional sex laws

 

[Xen]

your right, it ewasntg chrstianity that founded the wests sex roles- all european culture, except fp rthe Minoans had male dominated culture- mycenae was no exception, and its one fo the many legacies ,eft by it, and adopted by the classical greeks

your idea s more dependent (in fact completelyl dependent pn the Minoan, and not the Mycenaean culture being the one to have survived...

@onejayhawk- strictlly limiting it to Socrates, Plato and Aristotle, the philoshopical wporld would not have been much differnt- the leading schoold of phiolospy werenot founded by them, but what a tradgedy it would have been if Socrates was lost to us! anyway, that said, science, at least whatever you want to call what aristotle did, walking the wire between phiosophical thought, science, and ramblingsd base don nothing but his own fancy, well who knows, but I think eventually, people would have arisin to "fill the void" so to speak

 

[pandora]

Originally posted by Xen
your idea s more dependent (in fact completelyl dependent pn the Minoan, and not the Mycenaean culture being the one to have survived...

oh...i thought mykenae was more like minos. i thought the hellenistic greek culture brought the break in the development of sex roles.

are you sure about your point? im not of mine, so...

 

[Xen]

no, the mycenaeans, like the rest of the indo-european cultuural stock, which spread its roots from scandaniva to the indus river (remember, I'm talking culture, not ethnicity) was of a very firmlly masculine orientation in its political life, and in its relgious life

 

[sebanaj]

It was the generalization of slavery that permitted the great culture and philosophy of the classical age. It liberated the citizens from direct production and also the Popular Tirannies distributed the land in a way that the small unit became the base of its system. Pisistrato, Solon and Clistenes were important in its formation.
In the case that the dorians or dorios wouldn't have come, i don't know if Mycenae would evolve in the same way as Athens, because i don't know how was the socio-political-economical structure.
For the philosophers to appear, the emancipation of the citizens from the production was needed first.