Napoleonic wars

LouLong

In love with Rei Ayanami
Joined
Nov 16, 2001
Messages
7,385
Location
Fontainebleau FRANCE
Hi,

I know threadplug is frowned upon but this is just to let you know there are ongoing discussions about the Napoleonic times for a Napoleonic mod in the C&C forum.

If you are a specialist (we are eager to learn about the ships of the time for instance) or simply curious, feel free to call in sometimes, the discussions are not only about modmaking.

The link is in my signature (the "Grognards").
 
No problem with that - one of my envisioned purpose for this forum is as a 'support' for the C&C side. ;)

Feel free to continue the more historic-slanted discussions here, in this thread.
 
OK, thanks ! I will.

Here it is : are any of you specially familiar with the Napoleonic formations (columns, lines, numbers abreast) for the different categories, countries (if any difference at all BTW). ?
 
Well
The French used a column that was a tatacil innvoation for the time by instead of lining up two lines at 40 yards and firing volleys they would attack using weight of numbers. This tactic is to be given credit for many of Naploean's early victories. The first country to beat it was England. They stood in line and thanks to their speedy reloading were able to stop the columns because of one flaw in the French tactic only the first two ranks of men could fire while in line all the English troops could fire.
Hope this helps.
 
Yes it does, that makes for a specific tactic that could show in M-units probably. And opposed to other countries' ones.

Why were the English so fast at reloading ? A better rifle or just harsher drilling ?
 
The English were harsh in their drill and disclpine. Example they whipped their soldiers while many other countries did not.

One reason i have heard about faster English shooting is that they used real ammo in drills while other European countries used fake rounds or something else.
 
A lot of the French column tactic was pyschological, their soldiers marched in these huge columns with drums hammering and the men chanting, as men fell more would fill in from behind, the effect was that to the enemy it appeared that an endless mass of hated French were poaring towards them uneffected by the lines of troops desperately firing. By the time the French reached the lines the lines had usually broken in terror, even if they hadnt the numbers of troops in the column concentrated on such a small area meant that any melee had only one real possible outcome. The high firerate of the English however meant that so many French were falling that it was a struggle for their comrades to fill the gaps in the ranks will continuing to advance, the eventual effect was that the morale of the column broke instead of the morale of the line. Once the English managed to pull off this trick the age of the column was pretty much over. bear in mind however that the French did not exclusively use columns, like any other army they also used lines, the column was a tactic used for a certain purpose, not an industry standard so to speak. :)
 
the develoment of the column was also a discipline issue, the early revolutionary armies did not have the discipline to fight the traditional way. so gathering an overwhelming number in one spot for a battering ram attack was there response
 
From what i remember, the French army had bulged to 1 million soldiers under Napoleon's reign. Other armies involved in this massive conflict were- Prussia, Britain, Spain, Russia, Austria, and the puppet government of the Confederation of the Rhine which were a few German states sorta merged together.

Also, near the end of each battle, Napoleon's Elite Guard, literally, would march out to dismay the broken armies after the amateurs were done with them. The Elite Guard would be the most disciplined of the whole army and would strike fear in the minds of the enemy, tactics wise, Napoleon would use one strong column of troops to divide the enemy in half. Then attack with full strength. So, you could add promotions or different types of units representing elite troops.
 
Originally posted by ss3goku
So, you could add promotions or different types of units representing elite troops.

Interesting idea but quite difficult to achieve. Or just replace "elite" by "guard" without changing anything else but name and hitpoints ?
 
napoleon was a great believer in the bayonet charge as the coup de grace
 
Originally posted by pawpaw
napoleon was a great believer in the bayonet charge as the coup de grace

Yep, that is why my Napoleonic units have the bayonet attack ! To break and finish off unfriendly foes (is that a tautology or what ? ;) )
 
I'd like to make a few comments if I may? :)

Firstly, it's quite a common misconception that the British army beat the french because of their superior musketry, namely their speed. In reality british officers trained their men to hold their fire for as long as possible, and high training/harsh treatments ensured this. The french would often fire at longer ranges, or to frighten the enemy, but the british would not. One close, the British would fire one volley into the french ranks, then perhaps a second, and finally charge the shattered column whilst they attempted to form line.

French battle tactics were not to charge in column anyway, it was something forced on them. They adopted these due to it being the easiest form of unit to train their revolutionary armies to march in. Later on though after training the "grand army" in the channel area the french adapted their tactics to approaching the enemy in column, but deploying into line when close, I think 200 yards. This tended to work against the european armies, but not the british, for these reasons:

Napoleon's tactics were usually simplistic (with rare spouts of genius such as flank marches).

A) Gather artillery together
B) Smash large whole in enemy front with guns
C) Send in forces in column, enemy will by now be disordered and shaken by artillery, causing them to either flee from the columns, or give the column time to deploy into line before reinforcements can arrive, crush enemy's front
D) Send in cavalry to drive them from the field

Simple, but as usual, effective.

The british didn't play ball though. Wellington tended to site his men behind hills rather than on them (the reverse slope theory) thus negating the artillery advantage of the french. When french attacks were launched, the lack of disorder in the British ranks stopped the columns dead in their tracks, and counter charges swept them away normally. When they could form line they tended to do well, if it looked like they wouldn't they'd usually try an assault in column to avoid the disorder it would cause.

So musketry wasn't as important really. Yes we fired faster than the enemy, though it would be rare that this was ever tested in battle. By the same token, french attacks against formed european infantry often failed. The column won because the enemy were already beaten, the enemy would usually withdraw before melee ensued.

Another interesting british tactic was to use company volleys. Basically this equated to one company (british battalions contained 10 in theory) at the end of the line firing, the next following in say 5 seconds and so on down the line. By the time the 10th company fired, the first and second would have reloaded. This took great discipline, but when pulled off, created something akin to a machine gun like affect. This wasn't often used though due to it being rare for musketry duels to actually last long enough to enact the system.

Here it is : are any of you specially familiar with the Napoleonic formations (columns, lines, numbers abreast) for the different categories, countries (if any difference at all BTW).

I could probably help you out there :) what do you need specifically and I'll try for you :)

Why were the English so fast at reloading ? A better rifle or just harsher drilling ?

Quick note, all armies used Muskets as standard issue weapons. British, Austrian and some other specific formations/countries used the rifle, but only within certain types of light infantry formations. The rifle itself was more accurate, but slower to load overall.

Other armies involved in this massive conflict were- Prussia, Britain, Spain, Russia, Austria, and the puppet government of the Confederation of the Rhine

There was also Poland, portugal (though largely under British army command), Ottomans (though hardly involved, they did fight some armies at this time), Italians also served under napoleon, and in 1815 it's best to add the dutch-belgians. Sweden fought in the 1813 campaign, under the rulership of Bernadotte, a former marshal of france! :eek: Denmark briefly fought Britain in 1806 I think. India was also fought over and the States, but I'm betting it would be a europe map....

Also, near the end of each battle, Napoleon's Elite Guard, literally, would march out to dismay the broken armies after the amateurs were done with them. The Elite Guard would be the most disciplined of the whole army and would strike fear in the minds of the enemy, tactics wise, Napoleon would use one strong column of troops to divide the enemy in half. Then attack with full strength. So, you could add promotions or different types of units representing elite troops

Hmmm some of this is not strictly true. The imperial gaurd was only used from 1813 onwards with the exception of the young gaurd (russia) and cavalry (russia and briefly spain). It's first real introduction to battle outside of the young guard came through the middle gaurd at Lutzen/Bauden/Dresden/Leipzig. They were again used with their younger comrades in the 1814 battle for france. The old gaurd didn't see action in battle in any real scale until the 1815 were they fought in the last assault of Waterloo (and even then 2 or 3 out of the 8 battalions didn't join the attack). Napoleon simply valued them WAY to highly to throw them about lightly. At Borodino, he refused to use them to drive the russians from the field and shatter them because he feared loosing his last reserve so far from home... So really, the gaurd stayed out of most of the wars depending on their seniority*. I don't think the middle and old between them fought in action on more than a dozen major battlefields.

Something about gaurds hard to simulate I guess was that when driven from the field, such as at Waterloo, the french army literally collapsed into rout. The shout of "La Garde recule!" in almost disbelief turned the once proud french imperial army into a scattering mob within minutes. At the other end though, at Waterloo, Plancenoit fell to a prussian corps surrounding the Young Gaurd and anhialating them. Napoleon sent just two battalions of middle gaurd in, and at bayonet point they drove the disorganised prussians back out again and held for a while longer. These weren't just pretty troops, there to scare the enemy they could really kick butt when needed :D

*The Imp. Gaurd was for the main part of the wars in 5 main parts, the young, middle, old gaurd which were infantry, and literally based on age/legnth of service and then the cavalry, then finally the artillery. There was surgeons and engineers, but that's kinda a side thing really.

Sorry to ramble anyway, napoloeonics is kinda a wargame period for me :D Be happy to help/advise anyone though :)
 
Private Hudson, I'm ordering you to post more often in these forums. That was an outstanding contribution.

R.III
 
Thanks :D I tend to wargame mostly in the Napoloeonic/ACW/WWII period, so I tend to know a bit about these periods :)
 
Indeed, fairly interesting.

And I am happy one of your (few) posts was for this thread.

To be precise, my main aim with this thread was to gather info to know if it would be useful/accurate to use different styles of Munits for the project. I mention that now because the thread object might not have been very clear. And of course, it does not mean any other topic is not relevant. I am interested in everything that concerns the Napoleonic-era warfare, and especially what can be moddable into the game.
 
I'll have to disagree with you on some of those points. The British won because of mis intelligence, Napoleon was misinformed of information: specifically that the Prussian army had been eliminated and was retreating. His second in command also let loose the cavalry 7 times on the British since he thought they were retreating, each time did damage, but with heavy costs.
For the British, you can add a Scottish cavalry unit, these guys went on a suicide charge to stop another French onslaught from happening. But i agree with the machine gun effect, that alone saved the British from the elite French corps.

On a side note, since we are talking about the French in terms of warfare, anyone thinking about doing a mod for the Franco-Prussian war

Also, about the elite guard thing yea, that would be a good idea to change the name to elite guard and not add anymore benefits since that might be a change in balance of power. But we should have some benefit, since not that many units hit elite status.
 
The British won because of mis intelligence, Napoleon was misinformed of information: specifically that the Prussian army had been eliminated and was retreating.

Hmm yes, but napoleon sat the right wing around for half a day after Ligny refusing to allow Grouchy to persue the prussians from the field and then interupt their attempts to reach Waterloo. He then repeatedly ordered Grouchy to simultaneously stop the Prussians (some double Grouchy's strength by then) by moving between them and the British (impossible due to napoleon's inaction) and later to send troops to reinforce Napoleon in crushing the British right. Grouchy was never the best of commanders, but it's doubtful even Lannes or Davout could have pulled off Napoleons pointlessly out of touch commands. If napoleon lacked information, it was because Napoleon wasted time in chasing down the Prussian army to ensure their defeat.

His second in command also let loose the cavalry 7 times on the British since he thought they were retreating, each time did damage, but with heavy costs

Hmm there is now a school of thought that says that Napoleon agreed with this. This is based on 2 things, firstly Napoleon was not incapacitated for this entire period, had he disagreed with Ney, he would have stopped the attacks. Secondly it cites that since the french infantry was devoid of attacking ability for much of the cavalry attack times*, the attacks were essential in keeping the Allied army at bay, and the initiative to the french in order to recommence the infantry assaults. Remember that the French army was only 10,000 stronger than the Allied one, and despite Wellington's fears, the Dutch-Belgians in general fought well, some even repulsing the Gaurd at the end of the battle. With the loss of much of their infantry, the initiative could easily have passed to Wellington, who had shown his ability in the peninsula to attack weaknesses when presented to him. Whilst on the surface the cavalry attacks were pointless slaughter, on closer examination the reasoning for them, though callous is logical enough.

* One corps was mostly tied down around Hougemont, another had been shattered by the british heavy cavalry earlier on, Lobau's corps was reserve against the prussians. The Guard were not used unless it was literally the last straw.

For the British, you can add a Scottish cavalry unit, these guys went on a suicide charge to stop another French onslaught from happening.

This could be more accurately applied to british cavalry in general, other non-scots units performed similarly in the peninsula with often similar results. British heavy and elite cavalry had the finest horses in the world, and the worst cavalry soldiers. Brave and hard fighting, they had no brains in the main.

But i agree with the machine gun effect, that alone saved the British from the elite French corps.

I disagree, in the majority of accounts written by british officers after the war, the british rarely fired more than 2 volleys in any one attack. The effect would have little time to be used, though in some it was, this was rare. It was british steadfastness combined with Wellington's tactical genius that won the battles for the british.

Oh and LouLong, I'll think things through over the next few days to a week and see what kind of stuff I can think of. Not that sure what exactly can be fitted into Civ3 to be honest as I'm not that familiar with modifying the game. I've got some thoughts on it though from playing experience, especially since playing Stephen's excellent mod. Will get back soon on that for you
:)
 
I should add that one of the great examples of pathetic iconoclasm in military history is the notion that "intelligence wins wars." Intelligence can make it easier to win wars. But Waterloo was a victory fair and square like so many others; Wellington could very easily have lost it with the troops present and fighting, and Napoleon could very easily have won it. Intelligence may have altered the odds, but people still had to fight and die and hold square to achieve the desired results, and to pretend otherwise is to betray your review of the situation as both glib and superficial,
 
Back
Top Bottom