National College: How quickly are you getting it built in G&K?

[Alrin Kharr]

Pretty self-explanatory. Getting the NC up early seems to be much more difficult than it used to be, and I feel like my teching is massively slow until I get it. So, I'm wondering, for those of you who have started/played multiple games, by what turn on average are you getting the NC up? How many cities do you typically have at that time?

 

[zan_laurin]

I managed to get it built after consolidating the 4th city. Earlier on I focus on production & world wonders instead.

 

[MadDjinn]

It will be slower than in vanilla, definitely.

Ofc, one of the best plans is to use the GL on Philosophy to cut 20+ turns off the time.

 

[vra379971]

It will be slower than in vanilla, definitely.

Ofc, one of the best plans is to use the GL on Philosophy to cut 20+ turns off the time.

That is basically what I did. That said, I'm beginning to question the how many cities you want here before you get to this point. I sorta settled on two, your capital and big production city, but I've noticed that you will be definitely short on arms for awhile if you go that route. Sorta helps I imagine if you're not fighting against Germany and Japan at the same time.

 

[MadDjinn]

That is basically what I did. That said, I'm beginning to question the how many cities you want here before you get to this point. I sorta settled on two, your capital and big production city, but I've noticed that you will be definitely short on arms for awhile if you go that route. Sorta helps I imagine if you're not fighting against Germany and Japan at the same time.

every situation is different

But I'd go with Liberty/Worker/Republic and then Representation (mainly for the golden Age production boost) to get a fast NC/Oracle if you use the GL. Expand more after than. Else, it's plausible to hit 3-4 cities before the NC is available.

 

[pspboy7]

I always try to get NC after the second city is up. I buy a library in my second more often than not, or I build it right away.

 

[ahawk]

As the Maya it's almost to the point of being an afterthought if I can go for Rapid Ex and pump out the pyramids.

For Babylon it's a little easier than most will have it now in G&K, because that free GS can always be used to bulb in lieu of getting the GL. And if you do get the GL, that extra scientist is still there.

I think Korea is the most adversely affected by G&K of the Maya, Babylon, Korea triumvirate. Korea needs the NC percentage boost the most, I think, and unlike Babylon has no alternative but to get the GL if trying to rush for it.

 

[bhavv]

Im not even bothering to build libraries early as Maya, Pyramids are good enough, then focus on food, faith, and culture. 4 Cathedrals in the BCs is really really nice.

 

[MadDjinn]

As the Maya it's almost to the point of being an afterthought if I can go for Rapid Ex and pump out the pyramids.

For Babylon it's a little easier than most will have it now in G&K, because that free GS can always be used to bulb in lieu of getting the GL. And if you do get the GL, that extra scientist is still there.

I think Korea is the most adversely affected by G&K of the Maya, Babylon, Korea triumvirate. Korea needs the NC percentage boost the most, I think, and unlike Babylon has no alternative but to get the GL if trying to rush for it.

hmm... focus on getting libraries in your other cities before your capital as an option (leave library at 1 turn to complete). that way you'll have a higher bpt rate when you finish the library in your capital and will get a better boost towards Philosophy.

Im not even bothering to build libraries early as Maya, Pyramids are good enough, then focus on food, faith, and culture. 4 Cathedrals in the BCs is really really nice.

yup. You'd need a 4 pop city to equal the 2 you get from the pyramid.

 

[Zaimejs]

I always go GL and then NC as soon as possible. I've noticed a HUGE jump in science/tech with G&K that I never noticed before in Vanilla. Not sure why that is. Maybe I'm just paying more attention.

 

[Adjuvant]

Honestly, great library/national college beeline openers are "6 of one, half dozen of the other". In any game, if you rally to defeat your closest neighbor, "generally" then you later have the "open road" to freely build universities and public schools while in a wide window of peacetime with little to no imminent threat.

I can build 3 cities, GL/NC, or i can build 4 cities, kill someone, miss GL, NC at 6 or 7, uni/pub sch (factory?) freely,... thinking about it, the math might be "with me" doing it later...

 

[MadDjinn]

Honestly, great library/national college beeline openers are "6 of one, half dozen of the other". In any game, if you rally to defeat your closest neighbor, "generally" then you later have the "open road" to freely build universities and public schools while in a wide window of peacetime with little to no imminent threat.

I can build 3 cities, GL/NC, or i can build 4 cities, kill someone, miss GL, NC at 6 or 7, uni/pub sch (factory?) freely,... thinking about it, the math might be "with me" doing it later...

given the major delay (higher cost for Philosophy) wandering over and killing someone isn't a bad idea.

But getting a fast NC really helps the mid game (not spending 30 turns to research Philosophy also helps).

 

[JamesCivFan]

It will be slower than in vanilla, definitely.

Ofc, one of the best plans is to use the GL on Philosophy to cut 20+ turns off the time.

Which on Deity can be forgotten, the moment it comes to one's mind. GL on Deity is achieved 20% or even less frequently, because it usually goes between turns 25-30. Unless, there's a way that you can get it earlier than that somehow?

 

[MadDjinn]

Which on Deity can be forgotten, the moment it comes to one's mind. GL on Deity is achieved 20% or even less frequently, because it usually goes between turns 25-30. Unless, there's a way that you can get it earlier than that somehow?

nope. That's why I don't bother with it. It actually goes earlier in G&K than in vanilla.

but if people aren't playing on Deity, it's a good plan.

 

[JamesCivFan]

nope. That's why I don't bother with it. It actually goes earlier in G&K than in vanilla.

but if people aren't playing on Deity, it's a good plan.

I see. The earliest I managed to have the NC though (to come back to the topic), was near turn 70, with 2 cities, buying up the library in the 2nd one. What is an optimal time window to build it on Deity, in your opinion?

 

[MadDjinn]

I see. The earliest I managed to have it, was near turn 70, with 2 cities, buying up the library int the 2nd one. What is an optimal time window to take it on Deity, in your opinion?

depends on if you're being attacked or want to attack someone.

I do find it much later than vanilla though.

turns 60ish is 'plausible' if you can get the extra cities out early for the increased bpt (some civs are better for that) to get to Philosophy faster.

Any wonder hammer bonus or timed GA is required for a faster NC complete date. I've found it hard to get both the NC and Oracle in some games. Though other times I've used Stonehenge/NC/Oracle in my cap (mostly due to high food and Tradition start).

Then there's the ignore it and crush someone approach. That works if you gain a few cities, at least for a bit.

Getting to fast Academies is the real issue for Deity though (if not planning a classical-medieval warmongering).

 

[bhavv]

You still have to research philosophy as Maya as you need Theology Asap. You can easily bulb Thelogy by earlier than 2000 BC if you tech directly towards it while building the Glib.

I also don't think that NC start is stronger than a 4 city rex start. Before G&Ks Id be building Minument > Library > Colosseum > Granary in my 4 cities followed up by the national wonders. Now I need to add shrines, temples, and in my current game gardens to that build list too (peace gardens belief), so Libraries are getting delayed for faith and happiness first so I can get my cities growing earlier. I also need Aqueducts fast as well.

 

[anandus]

With the GL I always find it a hard decision to use it for Philosophy (and then the NC or Oracle) or use it for IW.
In vanilla it'd be a no-brainer, but the cost of Iron Working really puts me in a dilemma.

Of course it depends (mainly how close my neighbours are and such), but still.

 

[Lyoncet]

The fact that this thread exists is testament to the good job they did of balancing National College. Although personally I would have preferred they kept it as easy to reach as it was before, but toned down the bonus :civ5science:.

To answer the question, in all my games except one (all on Immortal), I've gotten it at either two or three cities. When I'm going Liberty, I get it earlier since I have an extra worker for trades and extra :civ5production: in my cities, and can usually pop it at two cities around the time I get my free settler. If I'm going Tradition or Honor, I really have to weigh expansion, defense, and NC. It becomes much less cut-and-dry. Depends on how many cities I'm aiming for, how crowded my start area is, how aggressive my neighbors likely are, how much money I can get in trades, etc., I may go for it off two cities or I may expand like mad or I may raise up an army and bash some skulls while I wait for the turns to tick off NC.

In that one exception I mentioned above, I actually somehow grabbed Great Library without even prioritizing it while researching Iron Working and ended took Philosophy off that. Quickly retooled from early warmongering to slightly less early warmongering since I'd be able to put myself further ahead down the line with Longswords and Trebuchets than I would have been able to at that very moment by going swords.

 

[apocalypse105]

Its a myth that you need the national college early on or you get beaten at higher difficulties I usaly build 4 cities and then start the national college no worries... At immortal

And if you really want the national college early use tradition to get free momuments so yo ucan build libraries or shrines early