National trading

[CYZ]

I've been thinking about bonus resources, what they are now and how they could be better.

Right now they are nothing more than tile modifiers. They increase base yields on a tile, increase yiels with improvements and also in some cases with city buildings. This is all fine. However, they aren't really resources in any way. You don't own them and can't do anything with them.

I suggest a system that will also help in mitigating food accross your empire, something several people have suggested in different ways.


The idea
When improved, bonus resources are given to their city and give a yield of +1 food to that city. So aside from any tile bonusses etcetera every bonus resource yields +1 . However, just like with luxuries, you only get the bonus once for every resourcetype.

So:
1 sheep, 1 cow, 1 wheat = 3 food for the city
3 sheep = 1 food for the city

However, the resources may be traded among your cities. So if you have 3 sheep, you may trade 2 of those away and still keep 1 for the +1 .

So similiar to how civs trade their luxuries, your cities may trade their bonus resources.


Reasoning
This will reward players for gathering different bonus resources. It also gives you a little bit of control over your food. You can source alot of your resources to a newly founded city for extra growth.

Personally I think this creates more strategic depth and flavour in the map and city locations. Second, it gives a nice use for bonus resources, which they don't have right now. Third, allowing you to distribute your growth is usefull.


Downsides
Possible downsides I see is that +1 isn't much in the endgame. Perhaps certain 'new' buildings could solve this. For example: supermarket could give +1 gold for every bonus resource.

Also, it could be argued this creates tedious micromanagement. I would disagree, national trades would not have to be renewed after all. You can just trade away spare bonusresources once and never look at it again.


What do other people think about this? Would it work? Would it be good or bad? What are possible downsides?

 

[Moriboe]

Make sure to have a look here

(I know it's not the same.)

 

[CYZ]

Make sure to have a look here

(I know it's not the same.)

That certainly is a nice mod! Didn't know it existed.

But like you said, it's not the same. I'm against bonus resources giving empire wide bonusses and international trading of them.

 

[Deggial]

I like the idea and was already thinking about a (local) health mechanic (that's what it is, after all) to use all this nice and "free" ressources, too.

To keep track of used and unused ressources in the "national trading pool", there might be a list of icons in each city screen with the number of free food supplies behind every icon. If you decide to use one of them in this city, click on the icon which will be highlighted (encircled,...) and the number of free ressources will be decremented by one.
Of course, if you lose (by barbarians or conquering) an already used ressource, You have too uncheck it in one of your cities.

BUT!
I really think, it will be a *huge* boost to city growth! Think how abundant cattle, wheat and sheep are! There are plenty of them in every city. Most likely, there will be no lack of them and you would be able to support almost every city. (To be honest, I will have to check this thesis at home. But I'm pretty sure, it is right...)
Additionally, dont forget bananas, by the way. And what's about fish? Even more food to trade...

So there might be a boost of +5 food in nearly every city! That's BIG! Think of all the early rage against maritim CSs and that they where nerfed in a later patch...
And you can not reduce these ressources on the map, as they grant most desirable diversity in city placement in their present implementation.

Another downside (only if you want to count it as one, of course) is, that city placement is less... crucial at least for dessert/ice ressource cities. If you are able to feed these cities by your national food reserves, the decision to found them might be to easy. On the other hand... maybe this is exactly a great use for national trading!

 

[CYZ]

I really think, it will be a *huge* boost to city growth! Think how abundant cattle, wheat and sheep are! There are plenty of them in every city. Most likely, there will be no lack of them and you would be able to support almost every city. (To be honest, I will have to check this thesis at home. But I'm pretty sure, it is right...)
Additionally, dont forget bananas, by the way. And what's about fish? Even more food to trade...

Think about it this way. If cattle is abundant you might have enough to give +1 to every city. In fact, you'll probably have alot of spare cattle. You'll be sorry for not settling near some other bonus resources . After all, if you have 3 cities with a total of 3 cattle and 3 sheep it's +2 per city, if you have 6 cattle it's +1 per city, and useless spare cattle.

So there might be a boost of +5 food in nearly every city! That's BIG! Think of all the early rage against maritim CSs and that they where nerfed in a later patch...
And you can not reduce these ressources on the map, as they grant most desirable diversity in city placement in their present implementation.

I know it's big. It would perhaps require some balancing in other parts of the game. I'd say spread bonus resources out a bit more, this means less resources to distribute and less food income from those tiles. Then again, 5 isn't even that huge. Especially considering you'd need at least 5 bonus resources per city and just the right variety to achieve that bonus.

Another downside (only if you want to count it as one, of course) is, that city placement is less... crucial at least for dessert/ice ressource cities. If you are able to feed these cities by your national food reserves, the decision to found them might be to easy. On the other hand... maybe this is exactly a great use for national trading!

That decision would certainly be an easier one! Which I see as positive. Keep in mind that +1 per resource isn't that much. You could donate a resource of every type to that city. If I'm counting correctly that's +5. It's 2.5 workable tiles/specialists. It's a nice bonus but not huge. Also you're probably depriving other cities of those resources.

 

[Deggial]

OK, let's see...
In my current game (turn 269, marathon, standard sized continents map) I own 8 cities.

The following resources can be found in my territory:
Deer: 1
Wheat: 2
Cows: 2
Fish: 7
Sheep: 5
Bananas: 0

So far all looks good and I think it would not be a to big bonus. But then, my land was not very favorable but a long peninsula with less livestock and crop than usually.

Anyway, your approach seems quite good, with these data.

-

About the "balancing in other parts of the game" or spreading the resources more:
As it seems, it is not needed; but I don't think, it would be a favorable solution, too:

- As for the resources themselves: I think, finding enough on the map for pleasant city locations is part of the pleasure. There *might* be slightly less of them, maybe. But cattle and sheep are important for buildings, too, so there is even more to take into consideration than food alone.
- Reducing the (food-) benefit of buildings will neither find much approval, as this was a much praised feature of one of the last patches.

Where else might be set screws for balancing?

- Cities participating in the national trade might need a road connection.
- The number of additional resources might be limited. With road: 2 resources max. With railroad: 4 resources max.
- Alternatively, using an extra bonus food might cost some upkeep, maybe 1 or 2 gpt?
- There might be a special building reducing the upkeep cost and/or adding one or two extra possible resources in the city. (Edit: hey, I like this idea!)

 

[Camikaze]

I quite like the general idea. The extra gold for supermarkets is probably something that would be a good thing as well. I agree that it wouldn't be too tedious. Rather, it'd just be strategic. And presumably it would be able to be automated to some extent anyway.

 

[CYZ]

- Cities participating in the national trade might need a road connection.
- The number of additional resources might be limited. With road: 2 resources max. With railroad: 4 resources max.
- Alternatively, using an extra bonus food might cost some upkeep, maybe 1 or 2 gpt?
- There might be a special building reducing the upkeep cost and/or adding one or two extra possible resources in the city. (Edit: hey, I like this idea!)

I already figured cities would need to be connected to the trade network. This would also be a balancing factor, wouldn't be as easy or cheap to feed those desert/polar cities. I wouldn't limit the number though, nor make it require upkeep.

Buildings adding resources and such could certainly work, but first the basic mechanic should be worked out right.

I even have an idea for certain (high upkeep) buildings turning bonus resources into luxury. For example: 3 sheep->1 wool (a new luxury). The sheep could even be imported from different cities. So having 6 sheep empire wide can be turned into 2 wool. But again, let's not get ahead of ourselfes.

PS: Good to hear about your game and that it doesn't seem too overpowered. Even if it does create more growth than is currently the case, would that be so gamebreaking?

 

[Deggial]

Yes, I think some ballancing is needed! As it is now, additional food is hard to get (bribe maritime CSs, build and maintain granaries (ect.), prefer food generating tile-improvements over production or money...). So, more food must not be *easy* to get.

Well, upkeep is the easiest possibility to balance things out. But to be honest, it is a little bit inelegant.

Therefore I think, the limitation by connection-type might do a better job.
The building (maybe I was a little bit unclear here) wouldn't add a food resources by itself, but only allow to use two extra resources (if available). It might come earlier than railroads, by the way.

Another possibility to balance things:
Maybe there might be a health based game mechanic reintroduced (like in Civ4)?
If there is aditional food available, some "negative food" might be possible, again. (-1 food for every 5 citizen might be ok.)
Smaler cities will grow fast, but bigger ones will need aditional food or stagnate.
New buildings to lower unhealthiness could be reintroduced, too.
(As much as I love CiV, I really *miss* Civ4's health mechanic!)

Good to hear about your game and that it doesn't seem too overpowered. Even if it does create more growth than is currently the case, would that be so gamebreaking?

I stumbled over another "problem" in my game. As I keep conquering, the ratio of controlled cities to puppets dramatically increases. Plenty of food is available, now (I don't have the numbers at my fingertips).

Do you think, puppets should be part of your "national food program"? For balance reasons they should be, or "full food" will be guaranteed for every controled city.
But then, giving control (at least in some respect) over puppets is against the CiV philosophy. And, even more, the player normaly wants to *limit* the puppet's growth because of the happiness drain...

 

[CYZ]

I stumbled over another "problem" in my game. As I keep conquering, the ratio of controlled cities to puppets dramatically increases. Plenty of food is available, now (I don't have the numbers at my fingertips).

Do you think, puppets should be part of your "national food program"? For balance reasons they should be, or "full food" will be guaranteed for every controled city.
But then, giving control (at least in some respect) over puppets is against the CiV philosophy. And, even more, the player normaly wants to *limit* the puppet's growth because of the happiness drain...

Good point, hadn't thought of this. Personally I think bonusresources should go to the puppetcity without you being able to control this. Makes sense as puppetcities are sortof independent and it'd be too easy to max out all controlled cities otherwise.

 

[Deggial]

Hmm... but then, having spare food will even have a negative (undesired happiness drain) effect on your empire...
There ought to be a solution for this or I'm afraid, the proposal will not find many proponents.

The only possibility I see, would be to exclude puppets from national trade. But then, as mentioned above, having all resources available for controled cities will be way to easy (and your desired new requirement in city placement will be pointless).

But maybe you or another civfanatic may find an alternative loophole? I really would love to see more important food resources!

 

[CYZ]

Hmm... but then, having spare food will even have a negative (undesired happiness drain) effect on your empire...
There ought to be a solution for this or I'm afraid, the proposal will not find many proponents.

The only possibility I see, would be to exclude puppets from national trade. But then, as mentioned above, having all resources available for controled cities will be way to easy (and your desired new requirement in city placement will be pointless).

But maybe you or another civfanatic may find an alternative loophole? I really would love to see more important food resources!

I think you misunderstood/I explained it wrong.

What I mean is that bonusresources in the area belonging to the puppepstate go to the puppetstate. So you own all foodresources in the territory of your controlled cities and can use those resources on your controlled cities. Bonusresources in the territory of a puppetcity automaticly go to that puppetcity.

So bonus resources in puppetcity territory don't give or take away anything from your controlled cities.

 

[Deggial]

Ah, OK!
Indeed, I misunderstood it!

Yes, like this the increasing flood of food resources will be embanked and the risk of being imbalanced is dramatically smaler. Additionally, there will be a new motivation to annex puppet cities. Not so bad...

The only flaw could be (and that's why I misunderstood you) that puppets are treated in such a different way than usually in CiV. Normally, gaining access to an additional resource is exactly *why* you want to puppet an enemy city.
Now, all of a sudden, food resources do *not* count to your empire. That seems to be a little bit artificial and counter-intuitive.

Yes, it will work like this, as I imagine. But, to be honest, I would prefer a solution more in the CiV design philosophy.

 

[Camikaze]

I don't think it's that counter-intuitive to have your puppets not contribute these additional resources. The assumption would just be that they've consumed them rather than shared them, which makes enough sense.

 

[CYZ]

I agree that it's a bit counter-intuitive that luxury and strategic resources are shared while bonus resources are not.

Then again, this makes enough sense. Food is usually consumed locally and I can imagine a puppeted city isn't willing to give it's food away.