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Natural Wonder Elimination Thread

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by hhhhhh, Aug 28, 2020.

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  1. monikernemo

    monikernemo Warlord

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    2 hills aren't plenty either, and ever in a game the 6 tiles adjacent to Tsingy are flat grassland / plains tiles with some trees. Lastly to respond to your previous comment about Tsingy not spawning in the tundra; I had Tsingy spawned in the tundra.

    According to fandom wiki https://civilization.fandom.com/wiki/Tsingy_de_Bemaraha_(Civ6) Tsingy can indeed spawn in the tundra.

    Eyjafjallajökull [20]
    Fountain of Youth [10]
    Giant's Causeway [10]
    Hạ Long Bay [8] (11 - 3)
    If coastal wonders are viewed unfavourably, then Ha Long Bay should be the next to go. 3 F + 1P + 1C is barely better than GBB yields. If we assume Auckland is in the game, then coastal wonders are usually top tier, but sadly that isnt the case for most games.

    Ik-Kil [20]
    Matterhorn [15]
    Mount Kilimanjaro [15]
    Mount Roraima [22] (21 + 1)
    Another upvote for Roraima. I don't think it is by any means over-rated. Even working 2 to 3 tiles means giving as much science and faith as a decent HS and Campus without buildings without major growth drawbacks, unlike Foutain of Youth.

    Païtiti [27]
    Pamukkale [20]
    Pantanal [10]
    Piopiotahi [15]
    Torres del Paine [21]
    Tsingy de Bemaraha [13]
    Yosemite [15]
    Zhangye Danxia [20]
     
    linaker likes this.
  2. Amrunril

    Amrunril Emperor

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    Feb 7, 2015
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    Zhangye Danxia (20-3=17) One of the stronger yield-based wonders will do more for you economically than an extra early game great merchant, and will do so more immediately. A great general is probably more impactful than one of the military wonders, but it's more limited in terms of timing, and it can't stack with a great general from another source.
    Yosemite (15+1=16) Science and food may be a slightly lower priority than the yields some of the other wonders give, but they're definitely worth having. GBR was only just eliminated with +4/+6. Yosemite gives +10/+10 with better national park potential and +10gold to boot.

    Eyjafjallajökull [20]
    Fountain of Youth [10]
    Giant's Causeway [10]
    Hạ Long Bay [8]
    Ik-Kil [20]
    Matterhorn [15]
    Mount Kilimanjaro [15]
    Mount Roraima [22]
    Païtiti [27]
    Pamukkale [20]
    Pantanal [10]
    Piopiotahi [15]
    Torres del Paine [21]
    Tsingy de Bemaraha [13]
    Yosemite [16]
    Zhangye Danxia [17]
     
  3. Drivingrevilo

    Drivingrevilo Warlord

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    Pantanal [7] (10-3) I’d say the yields just aren’t competitive at this stage. Working them comes at the cost of no production.

    Yosemite [17] (16+1) Weirdly, I don’t think I’ve ever encountered this wonder outside the true start earth map. But on paper, the yields seem great.


    Eyjafjallajökull [20]
    Fountain of Youth [10]
    Giant's Causeway [10]
    Hạ Long Bay [8]
    Ik-Kil [20]
    Matterhorn [15]
    Mount Kilimanjaro [15]
    Mount Roraima [22]
    Païtiti [27]
    Pamukkale [20]
    Pantanal [7] (10-3)
    Piopiotahi [15]
    Torres del Paine [21]
    Tsingy de Bemaraha [13]
    Yosemite [17] (16+1)
    Zhangye Danxia [17]
     
  4. xaiviax

    xaiviax Chieftain Supporter

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    May 21, 2013
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    Mayan human sacrifice vs descending dragon

    Eyjafjallajökull [20]
    Fountain of Youth [10]
    Giant's Causeway [10]
    Hạ Long Bay [5] (8-3) Nice wonder, just limited and not as good as the rest.
    Ik-Kil [21] (20+1) Early, it gives speed boosts to important components of your preliminary strategy. Late, it provides a ludicrous amount of production.

    Matterhorn [15]
    Mount Kilimanjaro [15]
    Mount Roraima [22]
    Païtiti [27]
    Pamukkale [20]
    Pantanal [7]
    Piopiotahi [15]
    Torres del Paine [21]
    Tsingy de Bemaraha [13]
    Yosemite [17]
    Zhangye Danxia [17]
     
    linaker, cylenalag and hhhhhh like this.
  5. CrabHelmet

    CrabHelmet King

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2017
    Messages:
    727
    Eyjafjallajökull [20]
    Fountain of Youth [7]
    Giant's Causeway [10]
    Hạ Long Bay [6]
    Ik-Kil [21]
    Matterhorn [15]
    Mount Kilimanjaro [15]
    Mount Roraima [22]
    Païtiti [27]
    Pamukkale [20]
    Pantanal [7]
    Piopiotahi [15]
    Torres del Paine [21]
    Tsingy de Bemaraha [13]
    Yosemite [17]
    Zhangye Danxia [17]

    If Ha Long Bay goes before Fountain of Youth, that will be shameful. If I don't find FoY and settle it early enough I am 95% confident I will get Religious Settlements Pantheon, then I won't work FoY in a city until that City has basically nothing else left to do. FoY has an extremely brief window of being useful. Meanwhile, 3 Food 1 Production 1 Culture is a great tile all game long and I will always be working that tile regardless of when I find it, and in reality because of Lighthouse and Shipyard it will be 4 Food 1 Production 2 Gold 1 Culture which is an amazing tile. It also syncs with the ever useful Mausoleum of Halicarnassus. Ha Long Bay is better than Yosemite and FoY out of those remaining and IMO better than Pantanal which is unimproveable (although I have no strong preference; Pantanal is definitely stronger earlier and goes well with Darwin, open to discussion here).
     
  6. TCBB

    TCBB Warlord

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    Apr 28, 2020
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    Matterhorn [12] (15-3) Needs to start losing points. 6 culture is good, as is faster movement over hills. But that 6 culture is only a theoretical maximum; often, it’s nullified by two or three adjacent mountains. And the faster movement is a quality of life bonus, not gamechanging.

    Païtiti [28] (27+1) I mean, come on, it’s clearly the best. Pick any one of the bonuses it offers in isolation, and it would be great; put them all together, and it’s power-creep gone wrong.


    Eyjafjallajökull [20]
    Fountain of Youth [7]
    Giant's Causeway [10]
    Hạ Long Bay [6]
    Ik-Kil [21]
    Matterhorn [12] (15-3)
    Mount Kilimanjaro [15]
    Mount Roraima [22]
    Païtiti [28] (27+1)
    Pamukkale [20]
    Pantanal [7]
    Piopiotahi [15]
    Torres del Paine [21]
    Tsingy de Bemaraha [13]
    Yosemite [17]
    Zhangye Danxia [17]
     
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  7. Noble Zarkon

    Noble Zarkon Elite Quattromaster - Emperor (BTS) Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

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    @CrabHelmet said it all, FoY is great if you spawn next to it otherwise it's a long time until it's worth working whereas HLB you can work any time.
    Hạ Long Bay [7] 6+1
    Fountain of Youth [4] 7-3


    Eyjafjallajökull [20]
    Fountain of Youth [7]
    Giant's Causeway [10]
    Hạ Long Bay [7]
    Ik-Kil [21]
    Matterhorn [12] (15-3)
    Mount Kilimanjaro [15]
    Mount Roraima [22]
    Païtiti [28] (27+1)
    Pamukkale [20]
    Pantanal [7]
    Piopiotahi [15]
    Torres del Paine [21]
    Tsingy de Bemaraha [13]
    Yosemite [17]
    Zhangye Danxia [17]
     
  8. xaiviax

    xaiviax Chieftain Supporter

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    Fountain of Youth should be at 4 in the list.
     
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  9. enKage

    enKage Follower of Zoamelgustar

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    Aug 21, 2010
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    2,661
    Location:
    Łódź, PL
    Eyjafjallajökull [20]
    Fountain of Youth [4]
    Giant's Causeway [10]
    Hạ Long Bay [7]
    Ik-Kil [21]
    Matterhorn [12]
    Mount Kilimanjaro [15]
    Mount Roraima [22]
    Païtiti [28]
    Pamukkale [17]
    Pantanal [7]
    Piopiotahi [15]
    Torres del Paine [21]
    Tsingy de Bemaraha [13]
    Yosemite [17]
    Zhangye Danxia [18]

    Zhangye Danxia +1
    I am not going to debate if it is overrated or not.
    But it is not the same tier as Yosemite, Kilimanjaro and so on.
    ZD has huge potential to break the game.
    Absolutely ma favourite wonder to encounter early


    Pammukale -3
    Not top tier, adjecencies can be obtained in many ways, should not be at 20 at this stage

    If I were between ZD and Pammukale and had to choose my 1st expansion, iit would always be ZD, even in worse terrain. Gimme that free GG and three GM ! Pammukale, Mount Roraima, Tsingy and some more want allow my cities develop so much faster (ZD is in fact +2 trade route capacity even settled in classical / medieval)) and would not allow me to take some early cities from AI


    EDIT
    Fountain at 7. If you mean CrabHelmet's post, it is already 3 points taken away

    eddit again... oh yes !
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2020
  10. xaiviax

    xaiviax Chieftain Supporter

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    Fountain at 7 from CrabHelmet, at 4 from Noble Zarkon
     
  11. Amrunril

    Amrunril Emperor

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    Feb 7, 2015
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    1,192
    It looks like Pantanal, Ha Long Bay and Fountain of Youth will probably be the next three to go. I'd rank them in the following order.

    Pantanal may be the least impressive in terms of yields, though 4x 2food/2culture can definitely be impactful in the early game. Really, though, none of these wonders have yields that excite me in the way the adjacency-based wonders do. What Pantanal can do, though, is provide its full yields while also setting up three or four +4holy sites (which makes the holy site adjacency card well worth running). With work ethic, that's completely game changing. Even without work ethic, though, I'd happily take the opportunity to channel that faith into monumentality, grandmaster's chapel, naturalists etc. over the yields provided by either of the other wonders. (7+1=8)

    Fountain of Youth is costly to work in the early game, but it's at least impactful when it is worked, and it has a solid niche if you get to it soon enough to be racing for a pantheon. After that, it's probably best thought of as an extra strong specialist slot. Not bad, but at the end of the day, the yields are just a 3 science upgrade of Crater Lake. The healing is nice to have, but I don't think its as impactful as either combat strength or hills movement.

    Ha Long Bay gives two tiles that are only marginally better than a resource tile with an early game improvement. A jade mine on grassland is 2food/1procuction/1culture. Taking two of these tiles and adding a food to each is nice (those yields can be further improved, but so can a mine), but among wonders, I really can't see this as justifying even the average ranking we've already reached. (7-3=4)

    Eyjafjallajökull [20]
    Fountain of Youth [4]
    Giant's Causeway [10]
    Hạ Long Bay [4]
    Ik-Kil [21]
    Matterhorn [12]
    Mount Kilimanjaro [15]
    Mount Roraima [22]
    Païtiti [28]
    Pamukkale [17]
    Pantanal [8]
    Piopiotahi [15]
    Torres del Paine [21]
    Tsingy de Bemaraha [13]
    Yosemite [17]
    Zhangye Danxia [17]
     
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  12. monikernemo

    monikernemo Warlord

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    Eyjafjallajökull [20]
    Fountain of Youth [4]
    Giant's Causeway [10]
    Hạ Long Bay [4]
    Ik-Kil [21]
    Matterhorn [9] (12 - 3)
    The main use case for matterhorn is fast exploration, but I think at this stage of the game, one has to do more than just fast exploration to keep a spot.

    Mount Kilimanjaro [15]
    Mount Roraima [22]
    Païtiti [28]
    Pamukkale [17]
    Pantanal [8]
    Piopiotahi [16] (15 + 1)
    Roughly culture variant of yosemite, while yosemite gives food and science, piopiotahi makes up lack of food with some culture.

    Torres del Paine [21]
    Tsingy de Bemaraha [13]
    Yosemite [17]
    Zhangye Danxia [17]
     
  13. Drivingrevilo

    Drivingrevilo Warlord

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    Pamukkale [18] (17+1) Slightly misses the point to say that adjacencies can be obtained in many ways. The point is that Pamukkale gives you instant access, in the early game, to several +4/+3 adjacency districts of your choosing. And this includes theatre squares, which are infamously hard to obtain adjacencies for unless you’ve already built a tonne of wonders. The amenities are the icing on the cake, really.

    Fountain of Youth [1] (4-3) I think Pantanal has long-outstayed its welcome now – try working those tiles early while also keeping your city productive; you can’t! – but I’ve downvoted that already, so FoY it is. Nice to have, but in no way game changing.


    Eyjafjallajökull [20]
    Fountain of Youth [1] (4-3)
    Giant's Causeway [10]
    Hạ Long Bay [4]
    Ik-Kil [21]
    Matterhorn [9]
    Mount Kilimanjaro [15]
    Mount Roraima [22]
    Païtiti [28]
    Pamukkale [18] (17+1)
    Pantanal [8]
    Piopiotahi [16]
    Torres del Paine [21]
    Tsingy de Bemaraha [13]
    Yosemite [17]
    Zhangye Danxia [17]
     
  14. lotrmith

    lotrmith King

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    Jul 28, 2009
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    716
    Let's think about how we're evaluating these Wonders as a consideration of time of discovery. By and large, finding a Wonder that you settle in your first 1-3 cities is far more impactful than any other time... in fact after the first Era ends nearly every Wonder is no longer, or just barely, worth the effort of traveling to settle. Because IE in Classical+, you usually have Monumentality and Ancestral Hall, and it's far better to settle fast and chop than it is to spend many turns traveling and delaying the return on your settler investment.


    To that end, especially considering the early impact the better, it baffles me that Culture is by and large being so undervalued. I'd take a single tile of Matterhorn's +1 Culture that I can work instantly early game, like truly early game, Ancient Era, over Pamukkale where I have to build out a Theater Square in the Classical Era or beyond. Or over Zhangye where I need to build a Commercial Hub, again in the Classical Era or beyond, to be able to activate those Merchants for those trade routes which, at best, give me similar yields to other more powerful Wonders that I could have been leveraging since the first turn.

    And the movement from Matterhorn is more than just icing on the cake. Movement is one of the biggest limiting factors in this game and, particularly early like during the exploration phase but certainly continuing throughout almost the entire rest of the game, movement bonuses are huge. People have said GC would be OP with nothing other than its universal +1 movement.

    Ha Long Bay is being done dirty.

    Eyjafjallajökull [20]
    Fountain of Youth [1]
    Giant's Causeway [10]
    Hạ Long Bay [4]
    Ik-Kil [21]
    Matterhorn [10]
    Mount Kilimanjaro [15]
    Mount Roraima [22]
    Païtiti [28]
    Pamukkale [15]
    Pantanal [8]
    Piopiotahi [16]
    Torres del Paine [21]
    Tsingy de Bemaraha [13]
    Yosemite [17]
    Zhangye Danxia [18] fixed
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2020
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  15. CrabHelmet

    CrabHelmet King

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2017
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    727
    Eyjafjallajökull [20]
    Fountain of Youth [1]
    Giant's Causeway [10]
    Hạ Long Bay [5]
    Ik-Kil [21]
    Matterhorn [10]
    Mount Kilimanjaro [15]
    Mount Roraima [22]
    Païtiti [28]
    Pamukkale [15]
    Pantanal [8]
    Piopiotahi [16]
    Torres del Paine [21]
    Tsingy de Bemaraha [13]
    Yosemite [14]
    Zhangye Danxia [18]

    Ha Long Bay rescue team assemble! Culture and Production for all! The People's Wonder!

    Down voting Yosemite. It's a *much* worse Roirama, and also has a penchant for spawning in Tundra quite often. It also cannot spawn on Grassland so is often food starved. The best tile it offers will be something like 2 Science 2 Gold 3 Production 1 Food (where the double adjacency falls on a Forested Hill Plain), but the average is probably 2 Science 2 Gold 2 Production 1 Food at best. This is a decent tile, but not as good as 3 Food 1 Production 1 Culture early on - Ha Long Bay lets you grow faster while still having reasonable Production and has the more valuable culture, plus can be bumped up with Harbour buildings. Yosemite would be better if you could find it in grassland, but in reality on the occasions I find it, I can't justify working the tiles it offers very early on and it has little impact until my cities have grown a lot more. Working 1 Food tiles early on is just frustrating.
     
  16. Noble Zarkon

    Noble Zarkon Elite Quattromaster - Emperor (BTS) Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

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    These are all good NWs, really hard to decide what to downvote, I'm going to go for Eyjafjallajökull (20-3 = 17) as Volcanoes seem to erupt at the worst times, the extra yields are nice but these tend to mean you spend a lot of extra builder charges.

    HLB (5+1 = 6) I love, easy to work with the food and the production is nice.



    Eyjafjallajökull [17]
    Fountain of Youth [1]
    Giant's Causeway [10]
    Hạ Long Bay [6]
    Ik-Kil [21]
    Matterhorn [10]
    Mount Kilimanjaro [15]
    Mount Roraima [22]
    Païtiti [28]
    Pamukkale [15]
    Pantanal [8]
    Piopiotahi [16]
    Torres del Paine [21]
    Tsingy de Bemaraha [13]
    Yosemite [14]
    Zhangye Danxia [18]
     
  17. xaiviax

    xaiviax Chieftain Supporter

    Joined:
    May 21, 2013
    Messages:
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    Fire and Ice

    Eyjafjallajökull [14] (17-3) This plus Russia plus St. Basil's equals the greatest eye candy ever. And if you happen to be in the neighborhood, it's a wonder to covet. I won't shed any tears over anyone else's upvotes, I respect all opinions. The volcanic benefits are countered a bit by their detriments. This down vote is primarily based on it's current level and the tundra/snow bias.
    Fountain of Youth [1]
    Giant's Causeway [10]
    Hạ Long Bay [6]
    Ik-Kil [21]
    Matterhorn [10]
    Mount Kilimanjaro [15]
    Mount Roraima [22]
    Païtiti [29] (28+1) Was tossing and turning over Mt Roraima vs Torres del Paine for this day's vote when a spark of realization came to me. Both are way to close to Lara Croft's broken wonder of extreme power creep! So another wasted up vote for the lost city, strongest of them all.
    Pamukkale [15]
    Pantanal [8]
    Piopiotahi [16]
    Torres del Paine [21]
    Tsingy de Bemaraha [13]
    Yosemite [14]
    Zhangye Danxia [18]
     
  18. JJOne

    JJOne Prince

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2011
    Messages:
    376
    Eyjafjallajökull [14]
    Fountain of Youth [1]
    Giant's Causeway [10]
    Hạ Long Bay [6]
    Ik-Kil [21]
    Matterhorn [10]
    Mount Kilimanjaro [15]
    Mount Roraima [23] (22+1) useful anytime you settle it.
    Païtiti [29]
    Pamukkale [15]
    Pantanal [8]
    Piopiotahi [16]
    Torres del Paine [21]
    Tsingy de Bemaraha [13]
    Yosemite [14]
    Zhangye Danxia [15](18-3) Don't get why it is so high. Seems useless to me if you can't settle it really early. I will have a lot of commercial hubs later. I won't have many encampments, sure, but the AI builds them everywhere, so my 2 GG points from this wonder will recruit nothing after classical.
     
  19. TCBB

    TCBB Warlord

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    Pantanal [5] (8-3) Because something needs to go and this one is the most underwhelming. Yes, it can provide a nice holy site; but so too can all other 4 tile wonders. Yes, it provides that all-important early culture; but it also means your city takes 70 turns to build anything. And yes, it works well with Darwin; but then again, this only applies in certain games, and only if you manage to grab him.

    Pamukkale [16] (15+1) Just because I’ve always found this one useful. Doesn’t matter to me that it doesn’t provide instant culture à la Matterhorn or Tsingy, I really enjoy the flexibility it affords.


    Eyjafjallajökull [14]
    Fountain of Youth [1]
    Giant's Causeway [10]
    Hạ Long Bay [6]
    Ik-Kil [21]
    Matterhorn [10]
    Mount Kilimanjaro [15]
    Mount Roraima [23]
    Païtiti [29]
    Pamukkale [16] (15+1)
    Pantanal [5] (8-3)
    Piopiotahi [16]
    Torres del Paine [21]
    Tsingy de Bemaraha [13]
    Yosemite [14]
    Zhangye Danxia [15]
     
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  20. monikernemo

    monikernemo Warlord

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    I still think (potential) yield density is still a very valuable attribute in deciding whether a wonder is good, not just whether you can reap all sorts of early game benefits from it. The higher the yields, the more valuable each population point is, so you can have having a 5 population city having as much food as 10 pop cities etc. Obviously most wonders are good early game since they give some sort of yield or whacky advantage, and it is definitely a valid pov to see which wonders tiles are also worth working late game.

    Another criteria would be replicability of yields. So obviously, low yields are much easily forgettable and replicable. I can always work on a fishing boat amber tile and almost match yields of Ha Long Bay, or a jade tile would match yields of matterhorn. On the other hand, for wonders like paititi and fountain of youth or Roraima, their yields are unmatchable by other resources.

    Eyjafjallajökull [15] (14 +1) working tiles coming from this volcano comes at a cost, but it is a low cost to pay as this volcano can pay for the loss of population quickly, which is generally alot milder compared to vesuvius

    Fountain of Youth [1]
    Giant's Causeway [10]
    Hạ Long Bay [3] (6-3) gives as much as a fishing boat + amber tile. The +15 defence does nothing for me. But I must reiterate that if Auckland is in the game, any coastal wonders are worth the settle.
    Ik-Kil [21]
    Matterhorn [10]
    Mount Kilimanjaro [15]
    Mount Roraima [23]
    Païtiti [29]
    Pamukkale [16]
    Pantanal [5]
    Piopiotahi [16]
    Torres del Paine [21]
    Tsingy de Bemaraha [13]
    Yosemite [14]
    Zhangye Danxia [15]
     
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