Naval units

[jkp1187]

Any word on how this will be done? I had two problems with navies in Civ III (and II, and I....)

1.) The ships required too much micromanagement to use even as a coast guard. OFten it was easier to wait until an invasion force had landed and just annihilate it with massed armies instead of interception at sea. It would be nicer (especially as navies become more advanced,) to be able to use ships to "patrol" and set courses much like aircraft did in Civ III.

2.) The movement rates of the ships were static, even though map sizes were not constant. That, by itself, isn't bad, except for the fact that the movement rates for ships seemed to remain, by default, the same movement rates that had gone before in Civ II and Civ I, even though the maps in both of those games tended to be much smaller. As a result, exploring a huge, large, or even medium-sized Civ III map was just boring. A sliding scale for ship unit movement vs. map size, to make this an effective and efficient method of transportation (as it was throughout nearly all of human history) would be appreciated.

Thoughts?

 

[North King]

I agree on both points.

If they could introduce the concept of blockades and make transporting an army by sea much quicker than by land (as it was in real life), and also make the map have more inlets and bays than it does (they're too rounded now), then I think a navy would be quite useful.

 

[Meleager]

I also agree on both points,
however, i believe that the map size changing unit speed wont work because people who play on larger maps want a longer game anyway.
Also I think that if the navy had some role in supply then it could be made very important.

 

[frekk]

There's a simple solution to naval operations ... just make ships work like air does now. Each ship has a Range, which defines the radius it can operate in. Different ships can do different Missions:

Naval Superiority - Intercept and engage all other Missions occuring within Range.

Escort - Defends friendly ships performing Missions from Naval Superiority.

Amphibious Landing - Drop off units on a coastal square. Subject to interception by any Naval Superiority-assigned enemy units in the area.

Move to Port - Move to a new port within 2x Range (no need for a return trip). Can carry units from one port to another this way. Subject to interception at either end if the ports are within the range of enemy vessels on Naval Superiority.

Patrol - Reveals the map within Range. Subject to interception, but, at a lower chance than any other mission.

Simple, no? It also more or less takes care of a number of problems like having a Roman-era galley explore all of Africa and Eurasia, which I think is really silly.

 

[JavalTigar]

frekk- that could work but how would you handle early exploring? cause wherever you build the ship then you could only have a what 10 tile radius? even rebasing down the coast at your new cities, how would you meet new people (and crush them)?

 

[The_Architect]

There are many thread on how to make navy more useful in the game - and quite some good points in them.

1. As you mentioned - overhauling the movement system.
2. Establishing trade routes though seas and charging for them.
3. Increased capacities of carriers, and being able to load cruise missiles. Being able to load more than 1 nuke on submarines.
4. Controlling areas of sea other than those determined by your culture, etc.
5. Much faster transport in sea than on roads - a HUGE benifit in earlier ages when you are trying to explore and expand and trying to own islands..

 

[frekk]

frekk- that could work but how would you handle early exploring? cause wherever you build the ship then you could only have a what 10 tile radius? even rebasing down the coast at your new cities, how would you meet new people (and crush them)?

Early exploring? Realistically, before caravels, there weren't many cultures that explored very far by ship. Polynesians and Vikings are the only ones that come to mind, and that could easily be done under this system the same way they did it ... leapfrogging using settlements. You'd build 4 or 5 settlers, bunch them up at a departure point, drop one off 10 squares away, build a city, rebase, and do it again.

It's important to remember that naval exploration didn't really play much of a role in the world until the late 15th century. So, you'd quickly meet all the nations in your immediate vicinity but until you became advanced, there would be alot of the globe you wouldn't know anything about.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Well, whether they use Frekks system, or the original system, the simplest thing to do is make early units very bad for trans-oceanic journeys, but good for long-distance coastal journeys.
Personally, I feel that transcontinental exploration should be sharply curtailed prior to the middle ages-at least (unless you get the tech to do so very early).

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[ogmoir]

Early exploring? Realistically, before caravels, there weren't many cultures that explored very far by ship. Polynesians and Vikings are the only ones that come to mind, and that could easily be done under this system the same way they did it ... leapfrogging using settlements. You'd build 4 or 5 settlers, bunch them up at a departure point, drop one off 10 squares away, build a city, rebase, and do it again.

That seems like a good model. It's true that the Vikings couldn't sail to North America before they founded a colony in Greenland.

However, I think this model would require the ability to use friendly ports as bases for the missions.

 

[jkp1187]

This would also introduce a "supply line" rule, without causing too much pain. I just hope they do SOMETHING to re-vamp Navies...I've always loved playing the maritime empire in the game, but because Naval combat have, thus far, been a hand-me-down from land combat (in contrast to air combat, which was changed and made better!) it's been frustrating.

 

[North King]

Perhaps they could have it be the farther you range out from your base, the more chances your unit mutinies (ie becomes a pirate ship, boy, that would be fun), starves (ghost ship, could be interesting if they brought back the newspaper and had one of the shorter columns say something like "ghost ship sighted carrying phantom crew, etc, etc), or gets lost in a storm. This would probably prevent early transoceanic journeys.


And as to making navies even more useful--well, the further away from your capital, the higer maintainence costs are, right? Well how about this--coast squares are half the distance (or something play balanced) of the same number of land squares in between? That would make colonies viable for once.

Making them even more useful--how about you cannot earn the gold/money/whatever from a city unless you have a connection to it from your capital? Thus you couldn't earn money from your colonies unless you had a sea route (or a really long road). And if you blockaded an enemy's colony, they couldn't get the gold from it. And perhaps, with all that gold lying around, the city governors could contemplate rebellion, as they had the money to do it...

 

[Dark Russell]

I think the rules for ships are definately in need of tweaking, but to adding missions to them to function more like aircraft should be an option at best.

You can easily mod aircraft carriers to carry more aircraft, you can mod battleships to carry cruise missiles and you can even add more Tac Nukes to subs. Hell, you can even add more movement to ships and change the base movement cost of terrain to make early ocean travel difficult if you want.

I think adding a specialized ZOC so that any ship with movement points left will engage any (enemy) ship within it's LOS would be a great addition. But I need to be able to micromanage my navies because that is where the fun is for me. Just because a ship is patrolling a section of water doesn't mean they will see any ship passing through it...and thats why I feel micromanaging is a bit more realistic. I have no problems with adding additional commands to ships for those who don't like to do their own patrolling.

Just my 2¢.

 

[Timeeee4]

They could make increased support cost for naval units over a certain distance from the nearest harbor. Afterall if it was worth the money ships could be kept out of port, and supplied by supply ships and helicopters. A support cost would represent this.

 

[Timeeee4]

I would also like for nuclear subs, and airplanes to cross the north and south poles. To do this I think the units would reappear half the total longatude(sp) away. This would make sailing to the other side of the world easier.

 

[Jaca]

I've seen so many good ideas in this thread. Perhaps another confirmation of the oversimplified simulation of naval possibilities in CIV III. I really hope some of them made it into CIV IV.

Eagerly awaiting more news on the CIV IV navy implementation...
JaCa

 

[jkp1187]

I agree! And I'm not much on the whole modding idea. That's what I've done in the past, but I'm not keen on doing that, then playing against human players with default rules and learning that some of my strategies don't work (as happened in the past...) I'd rather Naval combat simply be made more workable and intuitive than it was in the past. If they could do it for air combat in Civ III certainly Navies are ready for an overhaul now!

 

[J-S]

I have to agree with Dark Russell. I also think that the whole navy thing should be rethought, but I do not think that having ships perform "missions" like aircraft is a good idea, simply because the nature of sea and air units is completely different. For example, ships can remain a much longer time by themselves without supply than planes.

The main problem I see in sea units right now is that they imply too much MM for the benefits they give. And IMHO this could be solved by simply adding intelligent automatation functions like:
(a) Patrol: ship moves from one point to another. The reaction of the ship when it spots other units while patrolling will depend on the chosen aggressiveness (sp).
(b) Setting agresiveness states:
(b.1) Extremely hostile: Bombard/attack all units/terrain-imp/cities automatically: the ship would bombar/attack the designated targets when they enter his bombard range. If attack is chosen instead of bombard, then it will autom move to attack enemies.
(b.2) Moderately hostile: Bombard/attack all units/terrain-imp/cities that are adjacent to the ship: like before, only the ship will attack only when the target is on an adjacent tile, not attacking those farther away.
(b.3) Normal.
(b.4) Flee: ship will move to remain out of any enemy's view.
So, these aggresive moods combined with the normal moving orders might help lightening up the MM in sea units.
In fact... these moods could be used for ground units as well...

 

[Ward]

I would like to see the idea of the FLEET added. Akin to the ARMY, it would keep several vessels together in formation while moving and attack in concert. The protection factor would be added to the FLEET as well. The FLEET would have to be a little larger to hold the components, i.e. submarine(s), destroyer(s), cruiser(s), battleship, and aircraft carrier. The placement of the ships within the FLEET would have to be fluid as the waters traversed will not always be the same, but the movement would carry the compenents across in the same formation together, rather than having to place all ships in one square and moving them as one.
I know that the navies of the world have a capability to communicated within the fleet using their radar pictures to trade 'pictures' of their areas to each other so that the protected aircraft carrier has the advantage of all concerned.
This FLEET would be available only after a successful engagement by an elite vessel, just like the elite soldier or tank getting an ARMY. Or via building the FLEET at the Naval Academy after building it.
This would help Naval engagements tremedously.

I also like the ideas of FREKK. It makes no sense that my naval ships would just allow a ship to pass through without engaging it. I know we can use Sentry/Enemy Sentry/All modes, but his ideas allow the engagement just like the intercept mode of the fighter aircraft. Not all vessels would have this, but I think this is a good idea. I would also like the aircraft stationed on the carrier to have this role too. Intercept/vessel would be a fantastic option available to the F-16 on board the carrier. The aircraft could not be used the next round or else it could not have that role available to be fair of course. I also would like the Hawkeye to paint the air and surface picture for the FLEET.

 

[eddie_verdde]

it would be interesting if ships could be sent out on travels without you controlling them directly...it's a bit nonsense the fact that you're able to control your empire in your homeland and at the same time explore the oceans on the other side of the world. And what annoys me most is the fact that you receive all that information about exploration in real time.

Besides, for those who hate micromanaging, this would be perfect because you would no longer have to make decisions such as: "should I explore to the left or to the right" every single turn...you'd just send away the fleet on a route and wait for news...just like in the old times

You could also send the ships to patrol your coasts automatically, instead of moving them back and forth manually every turn.