Navies

[Thalassicus]

1. I tried giving ships a high priority towards the Targeting promotion, but that didn't seem to do anything.
2. Firaxis forgot to give submarines their own combat class so it's impractical to specialize their promotions. This is why they still have the useless Bombardment promotion too. What I'd have to do is add a dummy promotion to every other naval unit in the game, and make all naval promotions require that promotion except bombardment and siege. It'd be a mess.

Iron is scarcer in beta build 11, which makes Ships of the Line more rare and valuable.

The ironclad represents late 1800s pre-dreadnaught battleships like the first picture. These were large, powerful, heavy-gunned capital ships. They're the transition between the ~1820 wooden ships of the line and ~1920 World War I battleships. This era of vessels were typically constructed of a combination of wood overlaid with iron or steel plating, and relied on both sail and coal power:

Industrial-era destroyers were small, lightly-gunned, fast ships designed to counter torpedo boats (hence the name "torpedo boat destroyer" or just "destroyers"):

The battleship line (SotL->Ironclad->Battleship) is intended to be stronger than the reconnaissance line (Caravel->Frigate->Destroyer), so giving a heavy ship lower strength than a light ship wouldn't fit.

 

[Mortal D]

Well I have to say u are convincing .
Yet the fact that SOTL can sink modern ships remain.
But w.e rly, at this point i can only think of a miracle patch/mod that will bring the AI to this game.

I just had to stop my current game as the 3 units, and 1 ship ( 1 infantry, 1 Anti tank, 1 artilry and a battleship ) i send to take 1 small city on a pangea like continent ( i was "born" on a small insland ) to get control of large oil deposit there, ended up conquering all 5 civilizations present there. Well almost. Like i said, I stoped this nonsens and quited frustrated.

Btw : I play on Emperror or whatever it is b4 diety.

 

[Txurce]

Well I have to say u are convincing .
Yet the fact that SOTL can sink modern ships remain.
But w.e rly, at this point i can only think of a miracle patch/mod that will bring the AI to this game.

I just had to stop my current game as the 3 units, and 1 ship ( 1 infantry, 1 Anti tank, 1 artilry and a battleship ) i send to take 1 small city on a pangea like continent ( i was "born" on a small insland ) to get control of large oil deposit there, ended up conquering all 5 civilizations present there. Well almost. Like i said, I stoped this nonsens and quited frustrated.

Btw : I play on Emperror or whatever it is b4 diety.

Based on those great pictures that Thal put up, I could imagine a SOTL sinking that destroyer!

With regard to the game you mention, I assume it's a different problem - that your Battleship was too powerful for the AI? Were you ahead by a couple of tech levels?

 

[Mortal D]

My tech lvl dosnt matter. I hit myself in head every day when i try to imagine how ppl play here.
When i read posts like "AI took my city" or " I had to start new game since i get myself in war i cant win ". Dont get the wrong idea pls, i have absolutely no intentions of "showing off" or making fun of other. I simply dont understand.

Try a simpel tactic : Declare a war and w8 for AI to attack ur city. 1 siege unit in the city, 1 infantry placed in safe place for support and second infantry or horse/tank with heal promo.
Kill all attackers. Now u have lvl 4 siege unit, infatry with march - if u ware lucky to exp it this high, and a healing support horse. Go and take AI city now. Try to use 1 ship if coastal.
Garrison it and repell all attacker same way and start all over.

Thats a slow but 99% sure to succ way to conquer whole world. Tech lvl of the AI can be above urs, it dosnt matter. Only AI artillery can slow u down.

Well sry for offtop.

 

[Txurce]

My tech lvl dosnt matter. I hit myself in head every day when i try to imagine how ppl play here.
When i read posts like "AI took my city" or " I had to start new game since i get myself in war i cant win ". Dont get the wrong idea pls, i have absolutely no intentions of "showing off" or making fun of other. I simply dont understand.

Try a simpel tactic : Declare a war and w8 for AI to attack ur city. 1 siege unit in the city, 1 infantry placed in safe place for support and second infantry or horse/tank with heal promo.
Kill all attackers. Now u have lvl 4 siege unit, infatry with march - if u ware lucky to exp it this high, and a healing support horse. Go and take AI city now. Try to use 1 ship if coastal.
Garrison it and repell all attacker same way and start all over.

Thats a slow but 99% sure to succ way to conquer whole world. Tech lvl of the AI can be above urs, it dosnt matter. Only AI artillery can slow u down.

Well sry for offtop.

No, that's very interesting to read. It's what I figured you were doing, except for the promotions. That requires early fighting and thinking ahead, but there's nothing wrong with that.

Still, I would think that when you run into a distant AI civ late in the game, they could overwhelm your expeditionary force with artillery (or rocket artillery) and aircraft.

 

[Mortal D]

No, that's very interesting to read. It's what I figured you were doing, except for the promotions. That requires early fighting and thinking ahead, but there's nothing wrong with that.

Still, I would think that when you run into a distant AI civ late in the game, they could overwhelm your expeditionary force with artillery (or rocket artillery) and aircraft.

Thats why i bring my single battleship there 1st
With a support destroyer.

Destroyer spot land targets and deal with nave when battleship harvest the coast and clr the way for an invasion.

When the "army" arive, the AI is already offering me all his gold for peace

Edit : If the AI got Air force - means ur talking about late late game - then ofc additional destroyers/carrier is needed.

Dont take the numbers i put here literatly. Its given that the "5 man army" have a support of a freshmans "new units" that act as shield and or support .

 

[Stalker0]

I've been thinking about how to adapt Civilization to better represent modern warfare. There's been some rather interesting news in the past year about the DF-21D anti-ship ballistic missiles (link to an article).

• Cost: $1 million
• Range: 2000 miles
• Speed: mach 10 (7500 mph)
• Trajectory: ballistic (into space)

The missile is specifically designed to destroy carriers, and a thousand missiles can be built for the cost of a single $1 billion supercarrier. There's been discussion about how the cost difference will change the future of naval combat.

One tip of the hat I give to Civ V is its the first civ game that I felt cruise missiles were worth a damn. They aren't the greatest thing ever, but I actually consider building them.

You could make them cheaper and stronger if you wanted to give them a bigger role, or make stealth bombers require more strategic resources.

 

[Mortal D]

1 more thing about subs :

Dont ya think that subs should have short range ?

Whoever played Silent hunter will know what i mean.

If it was me I would make subs range 1, but thats me. 2 at the max, but not 3 !

 

[Thalassicus]

If they had a range of 1 and can be spotted from 5? tiles away... not sure they'd be useful.

Their stealth capabilities already don't have much gameplay value and there's nothing we can do to fix it with the current tools.

 

[Mortal D]

Well if the option to make them "visible" at shorten range appears then i do hope to implement it, and at same time lower sub range

I made subs range 2 and will check how it works. If anything, it will simply feel better.

Not important as i doubt anyone build subs anyway. Whats the point when u can sink whole AI navy with 2 destroyers or so...

 

[gruven]

One tip of the hat I give to Civ V is its the first civ game that I felt cruise missiles were worth a damn. They aren't the greatest thing ever, but I actually consider building them.

You could make them cheaper and stronger if you wanted to give them a bigger role, or make stealth bombers require more strategic resources.

I would fear cheaper cruise missiles. The AI already stocks dozens of them and pummels you the first turn of a war.

 

[Dunkah]

Yes this is something I have run up accross as well. AI and CS's loves Cruise Missles.

 

[SgtCiv]

Thal - Have you thought of improving Naval units at all - maybe using the Levy unit system as an example. There is some huge gaps in naval units available to player. I know that most ppl seem to not pay much attention to their navy, but for myself I enjoy having a strong navy and would like to some more choices to pick from to build.

Some ideas to fill some gaps, but not limited to only these:
1. Cog
2. Fluyt
3. Galleon
4. Sloops
5. Bring a Privateer back to the game

If this is at all interesting to you I can come up with ideas on where and how they can be researched. Thanks.

 

[Tomice]

He did add the ship of the line as seperate class, and modern navies are diverse enough. There might be room for two ancient ship classes, though, a "scout" and a warship. Maybe something that can enter enemy territory, because early seaways are so easily blocked by borders.

 

[Sneaks]

I would argue that naval expansion is more or less unnecessary at current time, as the AI does not even fully utilize the options available to it. In Pangea games, I build 0 ships, and maybe 2 in Continents ones.

 

[Jorlem]

I'd like privateers back too. They were fun.

 

[Thalassicus]

I believe privateers might actually be possible... there's some attributes in the Unit Promotions file named "HiddenNationality" and "AlwaysHostile", which sound like the effects used for privateers. I haven't tested to see if they actually do anything or how the AI might handle it.

I've always enjoyed naval power and would certainly be open to adding more early types of ships. Possibly something on Optics and/or Compass.

@Sneaks
While navies may not be necessary, Pangaea-Plus, Continents-Plus and other map scripts create islands. These islands are typically uninhabited for most of the game, so they spawn barbarians. One trireme can rack up huge amounts of experience taking potshots at barbarians. This contributes to great generals, and if we have the Honor tree, it also gives culture and gold.

 

[Txurce]

@Sneaks
While navies may not be necessary, Pangaea-Plus, Continents-Plus and other map scripts create islands. These islands are typically uninhabited for most of the game, so they spawn barbarians. One trireme can rack up huge amounts of experience taking potshots at barbarians. This contributes to great generals, and if we have the Honor tree, it also gives culture and gold.

This is all true, but doesn't seem to pertain for a need for additional early-game units. Speaking broadly, what existed prior to caravels is appropriately covered by triremes. These ships basically fight each other and pick off the occasional stray embarked unit. That's pretty much all that happened in history, too. Shelling cities effectively didn't come about until later.

There's probably more of an argument for additional mounted and siege units, but VEM has taken the approach to limit the creation of new units. I do realize that with the Ship of the Line and now the entire Vanguard class, this approach may have gone by the wayside. If that's the case, then sure, why not?

 

[Thalassicus]

I add new things if there's a gap in gameplay that cannot be filled with existing stuff. There was no early game high-population booster (Aqueduct) and none of the existing buildings could really be adapted to that role. So the question is there a gameplay problem somewhere in naval warfare?

I feel it's okay right now... but there's always things others might see that I haven't realized yet, if that makes sense.

 

[Txurce]

I add new things if there's a gap in gameplay that cannot be filled with existing stuff. There was no early game high-population booster (Aqueduct) and none of the existing buildings could really be adapted to that role. So the question is... does a gameplay problem exist somewhere in naval warfare? I feel it's okay right now... but there's always things others might see that I haven't realized yet, if that makes sense.

Yes, it does.