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[BTS] NC 194 Ragnar of the Vikings

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by elitetroops, Apr 4, 2018.

  1. ArchGhost

    ArchGhost Chieftain

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    Late getting back to this one to check on it, but the short answer is simple @elitetroops : I'm not very good at this game :p

    I don't understand a lot of the aspects and relationships between certain courses of actions mostly due to the game's complexity and my inexperience with it. I have vague ideas of strategies that work, for whatever reason that they do e.g. doing anything earlier is better, Currency being important recovery tech, Cuirs rush very strong, etc but as far as the type of optimization you speak of I'm just not intimate enough with the game.

    For instance, all I wanted to do in the beginning was kill Shaka off, abuse Washington for a while then kill him too, and settle the continent for myself. No greater plan than that. The (rampant, I guess) razing came about because I only have a vague idea about keeping early conquest cities: they are expensive, and if the city doesn't contribute enough to offset it very quickly after coming out of revolt I feel better off just replanting it later, else I'll stagnate and never get out of the hole.

    When I looked at Ulundi all I saw was how much food it had, how far away it was, and that settling it 1N would gain yet another fish (also that if I did re-settle it 1N i wouldn't have to put another city down to claim said Fish in question). Is any of that a basis for good decision making? Probably not, but I don't have the frame of reference through the knowledge of what I should do; I know more along the lines of what I can get away with and that's about it. I used to go into strike at least 1 turn during REX all the time, so I've learned to back off a little bit, at the very least before Currency and contact with more AIs.

    As another example, after winning this I shadowed Pedro's Deity opening where he axed Washington to death so quickly. The whole time I was thinking "how the hell did he do that so fast?" and the type of optimal micro used to do so is not beyond me but I never would of thought of it. It would take the knowledge and experience he has, to know beforehand how effectively to pull it off. I know NOW how such a thing could be done, sure, but only from trying to do what he showed first.

    Believe me, I'm always happy to receive the advice of others such as yourself, critical or not, because it at least helps me to understand I'm not where I should be. Clearly I make a lot of things harder on myself, especially since I like to play expand heavy and build big armies (habits from other games that can be bad in this one). But I can say that since coming here and learning from community members on and off this forum (Lain's YT series' are boss teaching-wise because he's very meticulous about decisions and less gung ho than say, AZ) as well as just slowly learning about the game through my own wins and losses that I can at least play it the way I like to at a level that still a bit of a challenge. I mean, I still suck, but I'm sucking at Immortal level now thanks to you guys! It nothing like trying to tackle Deity (which seems as daunting as ever) but a far cry from playing only on Noble like I did before.
     
    elitetroops, SittinDown and sampsa like this.
  2. SittinDown

    SittinDown Chieftain

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    I'm in the same boat with you. ...I've really been enjoying the G-Minor 230. I've found it to be a fun way to test and refine my own thinking. ...it's been challenging to find the right balance between setting up commerce, capturing, razing, getting to currency, and getting chariots out fast. I definitely feel my way through the strategy... and it's different than how Lain seems to carefully consider options as he plays, and my way is obviously worse, but it's a tough habit to break when I only get to play for an hour or two late in the evening after I'm done with everything else for the day.

    It's great that these forums are here. I was shadowing Pedro's 52 shades thread on a cool map with Joao, and I was comparing HA rush start dates and realized my economy was barely moving because I neglected to cottage the capital earlier, and I realized he'd teched writing before he got his HA rush started, and I didn't. In hindsight it made a lot of sense to grab writing, because the gold mine in the capital + scientists made his HA start time earlier.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2018
  3. rfcfanatic

    rfcfanatic Mercantilist

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    Due to the extra hammer from the hill and 2 food resources I'm planning to settle in place. Although settling 1S would let the capitol to work 2 Wine tiles, doing so would make the Clam resource inaccessible in short term.
     
  4. rfcfanatic

    rfcfanatic Mercantilist

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    Noble difficulty. First attempt failed.

    Spoiler Failure :
    1640 BC. Washington had 2 Archers ready and my 4 Axemen simply weren't enough.
     
  5. elmurcis

    elmurcis Chieftain

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    Latvia
    :mischief: Wine tile even with Winery is pretty average tile. Although some bottle in real life can open doors to heaven :smoke:
     
  6. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    Spoiler Thought :
    When was 4 axes ever going to be enough for 2 archers? 4 axes is a tiny stack. Think stacks of 7-10 axes. On Noble the Ai start with warriors? You could of rushed Washington with warriors if he was close enough?
     
  7. ArchGhost

    ArchGhost Chieftain

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    Quick note:
    Spoiler :
    you need about 3 axes per archer to be confident unless you have a severe promotion advantage.

    It gets worse if the archers are in hill cities, have cultural defenses boosted (i.e Creative civs or shrine city), wall are in place, etc.

    As the stack size grows larger, as each newly selected defender will be the the strongest one left. This is why it can sometimes be okay to lead an attack with NOT your strongest attacker, in order to sacrifice a man to weaken the overall defense. But for that, you need the numbers.
     
  8. rfcfanatic

    rfcfanatic Mercantilist

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    @Gumbolt @ArchGhost

    Spoiler Failed attempt :
    I guess I underestimated the Noble AI a bit. 4 Axemen vs 2 Archers isn't enough indeed, especially vs a capitol with 40% cultural defense boost. The other problem was the attack being too late (1640 BC).

    Anyways, I tried it again. So far it has gone better than last time.
    Spoiler Second attempt :
    Declared on Washington with 7 Axemen in 2000 BC. This time Washington hadn't got any Archers yet. Only had to deal with Warriors and Chariots. Washington was defeated in 1880 BC.



    Build order in Nidaros was:

    Work Boat - Worker - Worker - Warrior - Barracks - Axemen.

    Tech order:

    Agriculture - Mining - Bronze Working - The Wheel.

    Further plan:
    Spoiler Plan :
    Whipped the unhappiness in Nidaros into a Library already. As soon as the Settler for my 3rd city is out, I will assign Great Scientists.

    Washington will have to build a couple of workers and a Settler. Since this map seems to be a water map, I'm considering The Great Lighthouse as well. At the same time I should continue expanding. There's lots of land to expand to.
     
  9. rfcfanatic

    rfcfanatic Mercantilist

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    1911 AD Domination Victory.
    Spoiler Victory :


    Did not capitalize on the victory against Washington very well. The recovery was slow. The number of Workers and military units was larger than usual which meant higher maintenance. Also, I should have prioritized cottages more and done so earlier.

    One more factor that contributed to slow recovery, was lack of easily available happiness resources. Only Monarchy and Calendar solved that problem.

    Only after 1000 AD or so I started gaining an upper hand against rivals in tech. Was first to Liberalism and had Cuirassiers by 1350 AD. Declared on Shaka in 1400 AD and vanquished the foe in 1570 AD.

    Could have attacked Shaka and subsequent AI civs much earlier, but decided to be lazy and spent lots of time on building, researching and procrastinating. Eventually, decided to finish off the game by starting warmongering again in late 1800s. Relatively quick and easy victories against Victoria and Hannibal.

    Managed to build The Great Lighthouse quite late - 600 BC.
     
  10. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    @rtcfanatic -

    Spoiler Thoughts :


    Starting with workboat is a bad move here. Always improve land base resources first. Corn vs clam resource is not a great trade off. The workboat can be whipped later.

    I would of gone worker/warriors to size 3/ settler/settler.

    This is Noble level. The AI second city will be 2000bc or so.

    So you had time to build a 2nd or even 3rd city first before going axes. You wanted at least 2 cities before teh rush. 2 cities by 2000bc is very slow expansion wise.

    Even after you had captured Washington you were still +8 gold a turn at 0% science. I don't think unit cost on Noble really kicks in with 10-11 units.

    Am I missing something here? I think the issue is you went war mode before you were really ready.

    You had gold for happiness. I suspect monarchy would of been easy to grab via oracle too.

     
  11. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    So where to take this save.

    Spoiler 1010ad. :

    So Shaka is down to an island city. I took him down early. Americans after 1-2 very long war is now gone. He got longbows as his last land city fell.

    I have a decent size military but it's most outdated now with castles everywhere.

    My initial thought is cuirs and galleons. Not sure of what with continents.

    Is it possible to get an Ai to vassel freely? I think I need at least 2xtheir power and at least double their land. Incas could be ideal for this?

    Ai has definately got astronomy/guilds.

    I am about 7-8 turns from lib. Assuming I go for cuirs.

     

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  12. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    Small update.
    Spoiler update :
    1150ad or so.
    Not played it on much but decided rifles were best here. Especially with coastal cities here. Plus chance to upgrade Beserkers to rifles?

    Bulbed PP. Took RP with lib. traded for banking. Traded for gold too. Still lack astronomy which is a bit annoying.

    Managed to take 2 carthage cities (This included his capital.). Bribed Victoria to war with him. She is teching fast but looks weak military wise.Hannibal has taken an English city so has a large stack somewhere. Likely where the English city was.

    Rifles arrived after I started the war. Nationhood is nearly teched. 23 cities should allow some nice drafting here. 6 Ai still alive. Might be easier going for land rather than AI vassal. Danger os Shaka vassaling to someone soon.

    Probably should of attacked Americans first here then beelined beserkers for naval warfare.Not getting navigation bonus is annoying.


    1260ad
    Spoiler 1260ad :

    Rifles/drafting in full flow now.
    Carthage quickly capitulatings after their capital and 2 other cities fell.
    English capped after 2 cities fell and I took no losses. Happened very quickly.
    Incas a similar story. Took 2 cities with no losses. Capitulated after 1 turn of warfare.

    1290AD and Dutch cap after 3 cities fall.

    Shaka and Koreans left. I think Koreans have Frigates. I have 20-30 rifles waiting to attack. Their military power is 1.6 still so they must have a good amount of units somewhere.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Jul 1, 2018
  13. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    1340AD and all done.

    2 Ai destroyed. 6xvassals.
     

    Attached Files:

  14. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

    Joined:
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    Ok, judging from forum activity, I last played sometime six years ago.
    Trying to pick up civ4 again now and gave this map a try.

    Too rusty for a complete writeup, but I really enjoyed the map!
    Immortal, normal speed, no huts or events.
    Lost (gave up) between CS and lib-race.
    Spoiler Game :


    SIP, second city 3N 1W of capital to share the corn, grab a few forests to chop, and some nice hills for a decent production city later on.
    Found George and Shaka and saw george had horses (a mysterious grassland tile yielding too much production)

    Shaka didn't seem to have any early resource, and I popped copper in the capital, so I decided to axerush him.
    Details are fuzzy now, but iirc I also settled a third city and then started to build GLH after the last axes where on the way.
    After shaka was obliterated I REXed like mad, settling 20 cities before running out of space.
    GLH and working financial coast is quite dandy!! :D

    The veteran axes got to take out a barb city a few turns before they got upgraded to berserkers, entered galleys with a few freshly produced collegues and set sail for Wilhelm.
    The attack was to slow, and there was too many longbows present, so I failed to take his capital, getting only a bad city.

    Here I gave up, reloaded 10 turns earlier and readjusted strategy.
    Then took 4 cities (Berserkers +catapults staged from a forest next to Amsterdam.), vassaled Wilhelm.
    Sailed to Hyana Capac and took all his cities quickly and then steamrolled over George with drafted rifles and trebs.

    Not eager to mop up the game, since I lost my initial try on wilhelm.



    A wonderful map, that really played to the Vikings strengths, Agg/Fin, and both the unique unit and building got plenty of love!
     

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