Metaslab
Chieftain
- Joined
- Sep 29, 2014
- Messages
- 68
Thanks for posting this map, really enjoyed it, and the excellent discussion in the thread too.
Actually finished this last week but haven't had a chance to write it up til now.
So, the headlines: Imm, NHNE, Epic speed. Domination in 1260AD.
The details:
Actually finished this last week but haven't had a chance to write it up til now.
So, the headlines: Imm, NHNE, Epic speed. Domination in 1260AD.
The details:
Spoiler :
Firstly I should say that I played about 30 turns and then looked at the first few posts describing early stages of the game. Reading all the comments on how easy a map it was, and a good one for moving up*, and in particular Elitetroops' description of his workerstealing trollfest on Pericles, I was inspired to restart and make sure that I was getting the most out of this map, and also to try that specific tactic.
*I'm sort of transitioning between Emp and Imm. Comfortable on the former, had a few victories on the latter but it still doesn't quite feel like my default difficulty.
Early part of the game went like this:
SiP. Initial tech order went Agri-BW-Hunting-Wheel-Pot-AH-Writing-Alpha. Then backfilling. First builds were standard worker-grow on warriors-settler (at size 4 rather than 3 due to food-rich start and high happy cap).
Workerstealing did indeed give me a huge early boost. Didn't manage as many as 8, more like 5-6. But that's a lot of saved hammers!
(General question for anyone who has an opinion: when trolling an AI over a long period of time like this, do you take peace and then re-declare between workersteals, or stay in war and try to tease them out of the cities? In my game the workers seemed to stay put, or heavily escorted, when we were at war, so I took peace and declared on him 3 or 4 times in this phase. Worked fine here, but obviously could create a lot of "You DoWed our friend!" diplo pain in other circumstances)
Construction in 725BC.
Dowed Pericles in 395BC (looking at those dates that seems a long time for war prep!) with 5 Hwachas, 9 Axes and 1 Spear. More Hwaxes following behind them.
Here's my core 5 cities - the only ones I settled - in the same year:
Seoul and Wonsan were great, real science powerhouses. The other three did their job, all got whipped aggressively in unit production, and captured some nice resources. Frustrating to have horses 1 tile out of Pyongyang's BFC (settled before AH), but Pericles' city that claimed them was the first I took, and didn't really need them for the first wars anyway.
I probably didn't need them all. One thing I made a conscious effort to do in this game was to not follow the "safety blanket" / builder habits that characterised my, and I guess a lot of other people's, playing at lower levels. The more I learn about Civ, the more I understand that really questioning the value of every build in order to exploit your
and 
most effectively is key to success at higher levels. So focusing on getting war moving quickly, and being aware of how successful warring helps research and expansion, were my main aims. Most cities built nothing but granary, usually barracks, then units or wealth. Libraries and later courthouses where appropriate.
Despite that, this screenshot makes me realise that with 5 rather than say 3 cities, not all settled on sites that were begging for a city, I could have started the "snowball" earlier (credit to Seraiel for that term).
One bad old habit that I've long-since shed is being afraid of overlapping cities' BFCs, but here I'm not sure that food-sharing was so great. Took a lot of micro, switching Seoul and Pyongyang between fur/corn, to keep them running efficiently, especially before the border pop onto the pigs. Prolly should have settled Wonsan first, but speaking of bad habits, I now think it feels "wrong" to settle a 2nd city without overlap!
Anyway, Pericles was down to one city in 35BC, at which point I took peace for Monarchy & Med.
Btw, I really like the Hwacha's bombard animation! Looks and sounds more ... explosive ... than the standard cata.
Finished off his last city AD130, partly because Shaka was sniffing around it, then DoWed Boudi in 145 AD. Had added a few WEs by now:
I got Feud in 155 AD, and she capped in 475.
DoWed Shaka in 655:
Bit more of a gap there. His power rating was higher than Boudi's, so I spent a few turn waiting for healing and reinforcements.
One small tactical improvement I made to my game here was making use of the "leave a captured city with a weak unit or undefended" gambit. This really helped get his forces down - for a few turns I took KwaDukuza, sat my stack outside it, let him march a few more units in there, and then took advantage of the CRII/III promotions my Hwaxes had picked up by now. Also had a smaller stack coming from the north.
He had LBs and a few WEs wandering around, so a tougher battle than Boudi, but he capped in 850 AD.
Built a couple of my favourite wonders during these wars (GLib and MoM). Hadn't paid much attention to them, except HE, but once I got the marble from Boudi's territory, and saw that things were being completed very late, I figured they were worth a go, for failgold if nothing else.
My Western stack was now moving towards the SW edge of Mansa's territory, and I'd been slowly assembling a second stack at the eastern edge of my territory for Giggles. I used this to DoW him in 860 AD.
But my economy was in the toilet. After capping Shaka I'd had a few turns of negative
at 0% 
- I can handle that in the early game, but I'm not used to seeing it this far in, and it unnerved me. With hindsight, could have ploughed through, but those "safety blanket" habits were still ticking away at the back of my mind, and I was making plans for how I could recover my finances and be sure of Lib>MT.
So I went on a big program of wealth-building, except in the cap and Athens (HE city), and courthouses in the largest distant cities.
I'd kept all of the Greek and Celtic cities, given Shaka's back.
Some decisions there that delayed my finish date, I think, but this combination of circumstances led to a really enjoyable sequence of events to finish the game.
I'd teched Lib to within 1 turn by the time I DoWed Giggles, and had started Nat, but was really limping there. Nobody else had Edu or Philo, Mansa was working on Paper. But then, after Paper, Mansa started going after Nat. I turned off research to build wealth for the forthcoming WE>Cuir mass-upgrade.
In 930 AD he was 1 turn off. This turn I also finally built the NE in Seoul, which brought me a nice gold boost as I'd already built it to within 1 turn in Wonsan, and started a GA with the Music Artist who'd been sitting around for centuries. And Archimedes (GE) was born at about 25% odds.
Switched to Caste/Pacifism to pump GMs. In the next couple of turns I traded Edu for Nat, and used Archimedes to build the Taj and double the length of my Mom-powered GA.
I also had a nice surprise when I took the first city from Giggles:
He built the Mids in that dusty iceball!!!?
Of course, it wouldn't have been a surprise if I'd been paying attention ... ignorance was bliss in this case! A bit of Police State after I've finished GP-farming? Yes please!
Did I mention that I hadn't being paying attention to wonders? Giggles had the AP, and brought a "stop the war" vote against me before I could get to the next city. The vote went against me, with the balance swung against me by ... Mansa!
Oh, you just signed your death warrant, buddy. I was already pretty invested in taking him out with Cuirs by this point anyway, but this sealed it. MANSA MUSA I WILL RAIN MOUNTED DOOM ON YOUR HEAD!
Got 4 GPs while running Caste/Paci. 3 GMs in 990, 1050 and 1070 (from Econ), and a GS in 1070.
Trade missions and upgrades were completed by 1130, at which point I DoWed Mansa. I had 44 Cuirs, 31 of which were upgraded WEs.
Here's the smoking remains of his empire in 1190, the turn he capped:
I also capped Giggles this turn, having redeclared on him in 1150. Love seeing all those newly-captured cities still in revolt. Use Hwachas on the first two, then let the horses run free. Any concerns about delayed finish date aside, pangaea cuirstomp is just such fun.
![[party]](/images/smilies/partytime.gif "Party [party]")
Toku obviously was a joke by this point. Noticed I was near Dom limits, and still in GA, so switched to Free Speech and ran 100%
hoping that a few borderpops would tip me over. They did, in 1260AD. Toku was ready to cap that turn anyway, but I guess the extra land claimed helped my score, which was a final nice surprise in a blast of a game:
348853 - my second-highest ever!
Roll on the next NC
*I'm sort of transitioning between Emp and Imm. Comfortable on the former, had a few victories on the latter but it still doesn't quite feel like my default difficulty.
Early part of the game went like this:
SiP. Initial tech order went Agri-BW-Hunting-Wheel-Pot-AH-Writing-Alpha. Then backfilling. First builds were standard worker-grow on warriors-settler (at size 4 rather than 3 due to food-rich start and high happy cap).
Workerstealing did indeed give me a huge early boost. Didn't manage as many as 8, more like 5-6. But that's a lot of saved hammers!
(General question for anyone who has an opinion: when trolling an AI over a long period of time like this, do you take peace and then re-declare between workersteals, or stay in war and try to tease them out of the cities? In my game the workers seemed to stay put, or heavily escorted, when we were at war, so I took peace and declared on him 3 or 4 times in this phase. Worked fine here, but obviously could create a lot of "You DoWed our friend!" diplo pain in other circumstances)
Construction in 725BC.
Dowed Pericles in 395BC (looking at those dates that seems a long time for war prep!) with 5 Hwachas, 9 Axes and 1 Spear. More Hwaxes following behind them.
Spoiler :
Here's my core 5 cities - the only ones I settled - in the same year:
Spoiler :
Seoul and Wonsan were great, real science powerhouses. The other three did their job, all got whipped aggressively in unit production, and captured some nice resources. Frustrating to have horses 1 tile out of Pyongyang's BFC (settled before AH), but Pericles' city that claimed them was the first I took, and didn't really need them for the first wars anyway.
I probably didn't need them all. One thing I made a conscious effort to do in this game was to not follow the "safety blanket" / builder habits that characterised my, and I guess a lot of other people's, playing at lower levels. The more I learn about Civ, the more I understand that really questioning the value of every build in order to exploit your
and most effectively is key to success at higher levels. So focusing on getting war moving quickly, and being aware of how successful warring helps research and expansion, were my main aims. Most cities built nothing but granary, usually barracks, then units or wealth. Libraries and later courthouses where appropriate.Despite that, this screenshot makes me realise that with 5 rather than say 3 cities, not all settled on sites that were begging for a city, I could have started the "snowball" earlier (credit to Seraiel for that term).
One bad old habit that I've long-since shed is being afraid of overlapping cities' BFCs, but here I'm not sure that food-sharing was so great. Took a lot of micro, switching Seoul and Pyongyang between fur/corn, to keep them running efficiently, especially before the border pop onto the pigs. Prolly should have settled Wonsan first, but speaking of bad habits, I now think it feels "wrong" to settle a 2nd city without overlap!
Anyway, Pericles was down to one city in 35BC, at which point I took peace for Monarchy & Med.
Btw, I really like the Hwacha's bombard animation! Looks and sounds more ... explosive ... than the standard cata.
Finished off his last city AD130, partly because Shaka was sniffing around it, then DoWed Boudi in 145 AD. Had added a few WEs by now:
Spoiler :
I got Feud in 155 AD, and she capped in 475.
DoWed Shaka in 655:
Spoiler :
Bit more of a gap there. His power rating was higher than Boudi's, so I spent a few turn waiting for healing and reinforcements.
One small tactical improvement I made to my game here was making use of the "leave a captured city with a weak unit or undefended" gambit. This really helped get his forces down - for a few turns I took KwaDukuza, sat my stack outside it, let him march a few more units in there, and then took advantage of the CRII/III promotions my Hwaxes had picked up by now. Also had a smaller stack coming from the north.
He had LBs and a few WEs wandering around, so a tougher battle than Boudi, but he capped in 850 AD.
Built a couple of my favourite wonders during these wars (GLib and MoM). Hadn't paid much attention to them, except HE, but once I got the marble from Boudi's territory, and saw that things were being completed very late, I figured they were worth a go, for failgold if nothing else.
Spoiler :
My Western stack was now moving towards the SW edge of Mansa's territory, and I'd been slowly assembling a second stack at the eastern edge of my territory for Giggles. I used this to DoW him in 860 AD.
But my economy was in the toilet. After capping Shaka I'd had a few turns of negative
at 0% - I can handle that in the early game, but I'm not used to seeing it this far in, and it unnerved me. With hindsight, could have ploughed through, but those "safety blanket" habits were still ticking away at the back of my mind, and I was making plans for how I could recover my finances and be sure of Lib>MT.So I went on a big program of wealth-building, except in the cap and Athens (HE city), and courthouses in the largest distant cities.
I'd kept all of the Greek and Celtic cities, given Shaka's back.
Some decisions there that delayed my finish date, I think, but this combination of circumstances led to a really enjoyable sequence of events to finish the game.
I'd teched Lib to within 1 turn by the time I DoWed Giggles, and had started Nat, but was really limping there. Nobody else had Edu or Philo, Mansa was working on Paper. But then, after Paper, Mansa started going after Nat. I turned off research to build wealth for the forthcoming WE>Cuir mass-upgrade.
In 930 AD he was 1 turn off. This turn I also finally built the NE in Seoul, which brought me a nice gold boost as I'd already built it to within 1 turn in Wonsan, and started a GA with the Music Artist who'd been sitting around for centuries. And Archimedes (GE) was born at about 25% odds.
Switched to Caste/Pacifism to pump GMs. In the next couple of turns I traded Edu for Nat, and used Archimedes to build the Taj and double the length of my Mom-powered GA.
I also had a nice surprise when I took the first city from Giggles:
Spoiler :
He built the Mids in that dusty iceball!!!?
Of course, it wouldn't have been a surprise if I'd been paying attention ... ignorance was bliss in this case! A bit of Police State after I've finished GP-farming? Yes please!
Did I mention that I hadn't being paying attention to wonders? Giggles had the AP, and brought a "stop the war" vote against me before I could get to the next city. The vote went against me, with the balance swung against me by ... Mansa!
Oh, you just signed your death warrant, buddy. I was already pretty invested in taking him out with Cuirs by this point anyway, but this sealed it. MANSA MUSA I WILL RAIN MOUNTED DOOM ON YOUR HEAD!
Got 4 GPs while running Caste/Paci. 3 GMs in 990, 1050 and 1070 (from Econ), and a GS in 1070.
Trade missions and upgrades were completed by 1130, at which point I DoWed Mansa. I had 44 Cuirs, 31 of which were upgraded WEs.
Here's the smoking remains of his empire in 1190, the turn he capped:
Spoiler :
I also capped Giggles this turn, having redeclared on him in 1150. Love seeing all those newly-captured cities still in revolt. Use Hwachas on the first two, then let the horses run free. Any concerns about delayed finish date aside, pangaea cuirstomp is just such fun.
Toku obviously was a joke by this point. Noticed I was near Dom limits, and still in GA, so switched to Free Speech and ran 100%
hoping that a few borderpops would tip me over. They did, in 1260AD. Toku was ready to cap that turn anyway, but I guess the extra land claimed helped my score, which was a final nice surprise in a blast of a game:348853 - my second-highest ever!
Roll on the next NC
I do have gathered quite a bit of rust.
