NC CLXXIV - Justinian I of the Byzantine Empire

[Metaslab]

@sampsa

Spoiler :

Thanks! Doesn't seem critical at all . Great idea re the HAs, the fact that the already in them would get transferred to the upgrade unit once the appropriate tech is reached hadn't occurred to me at all. Will definitely do that.

Re next target, I think you're right about Willem. Was mulling this over after posting and the same thought occurred - if I give his cities back, he'll be able to tech well for me.

On city size ... ummm, yes! The reason the cap's not growing right now is because I'm trying to get the next GP out quickly (hoping for another GM for fast teching & upgrades). But in general, yeah some harsh (was on 0.6 of Monty's strength when he DoWed, so wanted units fast), also built too many overlapping cities around the cap, leaving insufficient to go round.

 

[cseanny]

til 125 AD

Spoiler :

Finished off my HA wars (all AI dead on my continent) and am currently sitting at 20 cities. I'm currently at 80% of world population and 38% land (=/). Max conquest gold brought me over 1000 and I was at around -60 gpt for a couple turns. After whipping CHs and building wealth all is fine.

Right now I'm simply pumping out settlers to see if I have enough land on my continent to reach domination limit. HA are OP.

 

[sampsa]

@cseanny

Spoiler :

HA are OP.

They sure are, especially when playing a difficulty level much lower than your skills. Good job anyway. I'm sure there is enough land to win dom, probably without border pops even. Need like 40 settlers.

 

[ConfusedCounsel]

1570 immortal victory domination.

Spoiler :

Went with cannons in the end. They proved ample to roll over HC and the French. Made a misjudgement, thinking I would need to get the Mongols/Chinese as well to get to enough land %, but had I not given back some cities, I would have had a way earlier victory, without any intercontinental warfare. In the end I just build some nonsense cities in the wastes to get a couple more points, rendering my invasion of China obsolete. Oh well.

Won the game at a loss of something like 40 cataphracts and 8 cannons, 8 chariots, better then I expected.

 

[Metaslab]

Pretty much done, but some AI behaviour that I can't quite figure out -

Spoiler :

As suggested by Sampsa, I went Lib>MT and took out Willem next. Easy peasy, he capped after just two cities. Then on to Pacal. Similarly easy. HC by this point has vassaled Nappy (actually the turn just before I declared). So the war itself was going fine - I had rifling by now, so those Grens I was worried about before were no problem for my cavalry.

(Lucky for me that AI aren't good strategists. At the rate he was teching, if he'd focused on military I might have been facing infantry or something. But he was all over the place, taking stuff from all over the tree like a kid on Christmas)

But he just won't cap! Usually I find that once you've broken the master down, the vassal will "renounce the protection", and then they often both cap on the same turn. But I'd completely wiped him off the continent, and Nappy was still his vassal. So then I turned my attention to Nappy's mainland cities (was building ships near the capital for the final invasion of Mongolia and China but didn't think I'd need to bring them over). Sometimes taking a city from the vassal can also prompt breakaway - because they're not being protected effectively? Now (about 1530, don't have the game to hand) I've taken all of those, and they're each down to 2 island cities, but the vassal relationship is still there.

Annoying. Bringing my fleet over to knock out those last cities feels like a hassle. And now that HC's cities have come out of revolt, I'm close to the Dom land limit - might even be there if I'd kept more from Pacal.

So I'm sure there's a mechanic that I don't fully understand causing this. Does anyone have an explanation?

I thought I might be able to match ConfusedCounsel's date, but that ain't gonna happen now!

 

[sampsa]

@metaslab

Spoiler :

I can't explain it, but something similar happened to me in another game: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=13002132&postcount=43. After the vassal broke free, either one of them wouldn't still capitulate. Next turn, they reversed roles and the AI who used to be vassal became the master...

 

[Metaslab]

That is pretty nuts! Damn nice game there btw, great finish date for an intercontinental war. Loved the list of "things I didn't do" at the end. Maybe in my game -

Spoiler :

Nappy has Stockholm syndrome? I mean, Huayna seems like a nice smiley guy, he probably just wants to keep hanging out with him

 

[ConfusedCounsel]

That is pretty nuts! Damn nice game there btw, great finish date for an intercontinental war. Loved the list of "things I didn't do" at the end. Maybe in my game -

Spoiler :

Nappy has Stockholm syndrome? I mean, Huayna seems like a nice smiley guy, he probably just wants to keep hanging out with him

Thanks!

Spoiler :

In the end it wasn't much of an intercontentinal war, not sure if any of the cities captured even got out of revolt by the time I won. Not sure about your game, civs with vassals are weird and annoying buggers.

 

[Metaslab]

Ah... I'm not sure if I should say this, but my comments above were actually in response to the game Sampsa linked in the previous post!

But having brandished and then retracted a compliment, I have to acknowledge that your game was an improvement on mine, because -

Spoiler :

You built the Oracle, which I think was better than my stone-wonders early strat
You made good use of the UU, in best NC tradition
You actually finished the damn thing! I had a hissy fit after being unable to break up the Franco-Incan bromance and abandoned it.

Also, interesting that we both had a moment of realising too late that we could have got Dom from taking over the mainland. I feel your pain!

 

[sampsa]

I think many people are needlessly terrified of inter-continental wars. 10 galleons transport 30 units and if you need more, set up a galleon chain, which may or may not need more galleons. Maybe it's hard to pull off those if you have like 6 cities, but usually at least one AI has been taken out by that point so the city count is closer to 15.

 

[Metaslab]

I do have a bit of an aversion to them, but laziness more than fear really. The game often feels well in hand by the time the other continent has been met, and I start looking for the quickest (in real time) way to finish, aka "ehhh, let's just go space"

 

[sampsa]

I start looking for the quickest (in real time) way to finish, aka "ehhh, let's just go space"

For me, it's always the other way around. I'm ready to sacrifice an hour or two to win conquest, usually 1200-1600AD. Actually I've never won space in BtS.

 

[ConfusedCounsel]

Ah... I'm not sure if I should say this, but my comments above were actually in response to the game Sampsa linked in the previous post!

But having brandished and then retracted a compliment, I have to acknowledge that your game was an improvement on mine, because -

Spoiler :

You built the Oracle, which I think was better than my stone-wonders early strat
You made good use of the UU, in best NC tradition
You actually finished the damn thing! I had a hissy fit after being unable to break up the Franco-Incan bromance and abandoned it.

Also, interesting that we both had a moment of realising too late that we could have got Dom from taking over the mainland. I feel your pain!

Ah crap. I was wondering who you were refering to, but your comments seemed so applicable I kinda figured it could be me. Now I feel embarrassed.

I also do not as much fear intercontinental warfare, but more dislike the logistics of it. Gathering your fleet, moving your troops to the right point, protecting your galleons/transport on subsequent journeys, figuring out how much you can spread your invasion... ugh.

 

[Metaslab]

I was looking for that same red-faced smiley to express my awkwardness in my previous reply, but for some reason couldn't spot it in the list, so went for rudeness instead!

Anyway yes, with you on the logistics. My Civ time is pretty limited these days, so I'm trying to operate on a basis of "fewer games, played slower and more carefully." Maybe with that in mind I'll be more inclined to take fights overseas. Never done a galleon-chain before, could be a good little project the next time a suitable situation comes up.

 

[Alhrath]

Emperor 1913 space race victory.

Spoiler :

Strange game ^^ Oracled alphabet, then went for Confucianism. I don't go for religions usually, but two of the early religions were founded on the other continent, Buddhism was far away in Capac land and I had a spare prophet from the oracle. I did also the AP for the hammers, and the US for science.

Then I teched towards guild/bank, for both the bonus on the conf gold and the cataphractes. At this time, Monty tried to invade ... just at the time I was taking my chair at the AP, shortest war ever ... That gave me the time to build a dozen cataphractes and teach him some respect. He capitulated after one city razed and one taken. A strange thing is that I thought he would liberate himself as he got the 50% pop and territory condition met, but he never did, and made a wonderful shield towards Willem.

Until this time I was quite good, well in advance in tech due to a good partnership with Willem. Two GM even gave me the possibility to get lib first. But then, Huayna, Pacal and Willem started to catch on and even slowly out tech me. So I decided to rush internet, got 11 tech with it, and easily won the space race.

Another fun fact in my game : Napoleon DoW Willem in the beginning of the middle ages, and NEVER signed peace, constantly sending troops all across the continent. I even joined him for a few dozen turns, to keep my Monty busy (I didn't sent any troop, I was just hoping Monty would lose one city or two to keep him under the 50% which he didn't).

Nice game, when the next ?

 

[elitetroops]

Well played Alhrath!

Regarding vassals:

Spoiler :

I don't remember any capitulated vassal breaking free anytime. I'm also quite sure that domination victories have been achieved in One City Challenges with the help of vassals that grow very big, while the master is stuck with one city only.

Next game should be Bismarck, probably due this weekend. I'm not sure if I have time to make a map during the weekend, but I can try. Other mapmakers are still welcome to sign up for the fun as well!

 

[Alhrath]

@elitetroops thx ^^

Spoiler :

Ok, good to know ... Does it concern the 50% of initial land too ?

And what about an IA that capitulated to another IA ? I sometimes tried to break some AI free on purpose as personal challenge in some games (sometimes when I play semi coop with a friend who is much weaker than me, I need some extra goals to keep the game fun).

Regarding the map making, I'm quite used to the WB, but I don't feel I played enough NC to judge the quality of a map in this matter ... maybe later ?

 

[chumbosity]

@elitetroops: I thought you said you already had a Bismarck map ready. If that's not the case I think I could get one; I already have a map ready for Napoleon when the time comes, but I could definitely provide another one for Bismarck if needed.

 

[elitetroops]

@elitetroops: I thought you said you already had a Bismarck map ready. If that's not the case I think I could get one; I already have a map ready for Napoleon when the time comes, but I could definitely provide another one for Bismarck if needed.

Yes I have. Now I have two actually... Made one yesterday, but today I pressed regenerate a few times more and found another one I might like even more... This is always the biggest problem with mapmaking, too many options. Maybe I'll just flip a coin and then post one of them up.

 

[chumbosity]

Ah, I understand now. Personally I'd say go with the coinflip to decide.