NC CXIV: Charlemagne of the Holy Roman Empire

[dalamb]

The Nobles' Club series started out as a way for Noble-level (and below) players to improve their game. Most of the original participants now play at much higher levels, so this has become a way for advanced players to help others learn to play better. You can play your own game at any level and with any mod, but it would be nice to comment on the games of other players and give them advice.

Our next leader is Charlemagne of the Holy Roman Empire, whom we last played in NC LXXVI The Holy Romans start with Hunting and Mysticism.

• Traits: Charlemagne is Imperialistic and Protective. IMP means 50% faster productions of settlers, and doubles the rate of Great Generals. PRO gives Drill I and City Garrison I to all archery and gunpowder units, and gives faster production of walls and castles.
• The UB: The Rathaus, a Courthouse with -75% maintenance costs instead of -50%.
  
  
  
  
• The UU: The Landsknecht, a Pikeman with +100% versus melee units.
  
  

And the start:

Spoiler map details :

Tectonics, 60% water.

Spoiler edits :

Several regenerations to get a non-coastal start. Extended the river; added the wet corn.

Finally, a cut and paste of our standard doctrine:

There are no hard and fast rules here: fun and learning are our primary goals, but we do suggest that you update your progress at various points in the game, using the Spoiler feature of the boards. You can post as often as you like; here's one suggestion:

• 4000 BC (starting thoughts, no spoiler required for that discussion)
• 1000 BC or so (how you decided to progress up the early tech/build paths, which AIs you have met, where you're thinking of putting cities, etc)
• 500 AD or so (after establishing some cities and a possible plan of action)
• 1200 AD or so (mid-game, Lib race, wars or peace, or whichever happened or didn't, met other
• continent if applicable, etc)
• 1600 AD (or when you have decided on a course of action and a specific victory condition)
• End of game (Victory!!! or defeat, no shame in losing, especially if you tried a higher level. Learning is what we focus on, not fastest win or biggest empire)

This is just a guideline. If you're trying to improve your game, then posting more frequent updates, in as much detail as you can manage, is the best way to get suggestions from other players. If you come to what seems like a major decision and you want some advice, post an update, regardless of what game-year it is.

We also welcome players to ask for specific game advice, as we have a number of stronger players who lurk and help out with solid tips, and of course, we help each other. Replies to specific questions should also be in spoilers, with a simple "@" in front of the person the answer is directed towards.

Special Thanks go to Bleys and TMIT, who really made this series a great one, r_rolo1, mapmaker extraordinaire, for his maps in the early days of the series, and all of you for playing.

The WB-saves are attached (zipped; they are bigger than standard saves). To play, simply download and unzip it into your BTS/Saves/WorldBuilder folder. Start the game, and load your favorite MOD (if you use one, if not, check out the BUG MOD), select "Play Scenario", and look for "NC 114 Charly Noble" (or Monarch, etc., for higher levels). You can play with your favorite MOD at the Level and Speed of your choice. From Quick-Warlord to Marathon-Deity, all are welcome! We stuck with the name "Nobles Club" because it has a cool ring to it.

Spoiler what's up with specific difficulties :

In each scenario file you can select your level of difficulty, but that doesn't give the AI the right bonus techs by itself. Use the Noble save for all levels at and below Noble. The Monarch save gives all the AI Archery. Emperor adds Hunting; Immortal adds Agriculture; Deity adds The Wheel.

For players on Monarch or above, you should add archery as a tech for the barbarians (if you don't, the AI will capture their cities very early). This cannot be done in the WB save file and must be done in Worldbuilder as follows:

Spoiler how to add techs to the barbarians :

1. Zoom in all the way so you can't see the rest of the map.
2. Use the CTRL-W key (or the menu) to enter the worldbuilder. Avoid looking at the mini-map in the lower right corner.
3. By default you're in "player" mode (look in the box in the upper right; the icon that looks like a person should be selected). You'll get a drop down menu labeled with your leader's name. Barbarians are at the bottom, so cover the rest of the list with your hand if you don't want to see who else is on the map. Select "Barbarians".
4. Select the "Technologies" tab in the box on the left.
5. Find Archery (the arrow head icon; 8th row, 3rd column from the right) and click it.
6. Exit the worldbuilder.
7. Zoom out again after the map fades, and start playing.

Spoiler huts and events :

Note: The standard saves have no huts and have events turned off. If you want tribal villages and random events, choose the saves with "Huts" in their names. If you want huts but no events, select the Huts saves and use Custom Scenario to turn on the option that suppresses events.

 

[dalamb]

Reserved.

Crashcourse World History points out that the HRE was not holy, not Roman, and not an empire.

 

[Quornslice]

Hmmmm, thinking maybe SiP here, as i'm gonna go for a more warmongering strategy this game I think, as i'm not very good at it so want to improve. Gonna be playing Noble with Huts as always, and am looking for tips on my warmongering skills this game please.

 

[Kyle Everett]

I'll give this a try. I'm usually a solid Prince player, but Charlie is one of those that I generally don't do well at.

SiP seems to be the way to go. Nothing to the east looks tempted, and with wet corn, plains sheep and cow, and stone, it seems like it'll be a nice production city. The unforested Plains Hill to the north may also hold some metal. Being in the north generally means not so nice land around you. Perhaps if I find a nice grassland city spot to the south an early capital change may be in order.

To 1000 BC

Spoiler :

Well, lots of AIs! By 3750BC I've met Wang Kong and Justinian who are to the east and very close together, and De Gaulle found me from the southwest. If I find ore or horses, a rush may be in order. My starting tech path is generic worker techs. Agriculture-Animal Husbandry-Masonry-Mining-Wheel. I was tempted to try and go for Polytheism since no one had picked it up by 2725 BC, but with a Buddhist Justinian, I figured I'd let some other sap get the heat from him. Settled Prague in a grassland city spot right to the south, has a dry corn, shares the capital's corn for early growth, and a riverside plains hill gold. I'll probably move the capital there soonish. The stone in the capital's BFC means I went for the Great Wall and got it at 2175 BC.

Finished the Oracle at 1100 BC and got Code of Laws to unlock the Rathaus, the capital is a great production site since it was only taking 15 turns on Epic without marble. A few turns away from finish Monarchy too to make use of all those lovely Wine spots. 1 settler finishes at 1000 AD and another will the next turn. I plan on settling the green and blue city spots. I have a fair bit of land to expand with so I'm not sure if early war is in order here. I'll have to see how my economy stands after building Rathauses.
Overview of my 4 cities.

Culture overview of my neighbors, been slacking on the exploration.

And the area I plan on settling next. Need to chop some more workers to bring those cities online fast.

To 750 AD

Spoiler :

Had an issue with the blue city spot early. Turns out there was a barbarian city to the south, I didn't have enough of a military to do anything about it before De Gaulle took the site. Met Mehmed by fishing boat in 750 BC which caught me off guard. I'm feeling as if taking out De Gaulle as soon as I get trebs and macemen will be in order. I seem to be teching and expanding faster than my rivals and my economy is doing alright.

Declared on De Gaulle at 175 AD. Using catapults and axes, not the best mix, but I'm a fair bit stronger than any of my rivals.

Alright, I'm new at this so I can't say everything that I did. The war went well. I'm not sure I'm actually playing Prince how easy this is. I finish De Gaulle off at 745 AD. My economy isn't doing so hot, so I'll rebuild before I move on to Justinian and Wang Kong. Met Sitting Bull as well.
State of my empire.

Until win in 1792 AD.

Spoiler :

So, I play faster than I should, so I'm just going through this and giving highlights since the start is what's most important. With the power and tech lead I have, I see no reason to stop war mongering. 1200 AD, Wang Kong Peace Vassalized at cautious, which rarely happen, but hey, one less war to fight I suppose.

Justinian capitulated in 1380 AD. I'm feeling a need for Astronomy early, I'd rather win this game militarily, and there's more than one continent. Won the Liberalism race in 1475 and used it to get Astronomy since cross ocean stuff will be more important than normal.

In 1555 I meet Sury on a distant continent, and he is very backwards.

At that point, I just started getting into the groove of the game, I kinda knew I had it won already and it was just a matter of time.

I mean, when its cannons and rifles vs longbows, yeah...

Mehmed and Sitting Bull capitulate very fast. All that's left is Sury and heading across the ocean. I left too small of a garrison in a city and he manged to take it back which made cap'ing him harder than it should've, but at 1792 AD he does. Earliest I've won an Astronomy game ever on Prince.

Homeland at win

Sury's land when he gave up.

If someone could tell me how to upload a save, I'll do that so you can see the replay. Forewarning, I played very sloppily here cause it didn't feel like a normal prince game, lots of automated workers after like 1000 AD. Perhaps the AIs just had horrible land or something.

Ah, okay, here's the save!

 

[shulgi]

Spoiler :

I love starting with BFC stone. Built stonehenge, great wall and pyramids. such a wonder whore. How can it be wrong when it feels so right! --don't answer that, usually I know better

 

[iggymnrr]

I was just thinking about giving the Burger King a try. Couldn't remember his real name. I also noticed that it is possible to play this a a level lower than noble. Maybe, I give this a go a settler ...

Edit: Okay so I tried a settler level start. Popped a worker and something was wrong. It had nothing to do. Starting techs on settler are different. So I loaded a few other leaders to confirm something. Agriculture always seems to get added but never mysticism. The norm is 4 starting techs but some civs start with 3 techs and some 5. It appears that if the civ has an industrious leader then any leader in that civ gets 3 techs. If the starting techs are any 2 of either mysticism, fishing or hunting then the leader stars with 5 techs. However Mansa starts with only 3 techs. So this would suggest, since everyone gets agriculture, that mining and the wheel closes some sort of tech adding program loop. (Add agriculture if missing, then add the wheel otherwise mining, if that's not possible, then stop adding tech.) The upshot is that BK starts with all starting techs except fishing on settler.

 

[Pengu]

Imm 1 AD

Spoiler :

Hmm, not getting much done. SIP, even though the gold was appealing.
Met Just, Wang and De Gaulle in quick succession so I knew I needed to get out settlers. Went Ag, AH, mining, bw which is something I don't like cause you get no commerce from it, but I had to. Just after 1 worker and 1 warrior, a settler was started at size 3. By the time I was about to settle all the others had 3 cities. Took the gold site with the 2 corns. I know it's no optimal, but I wanted to get the corn from De Caulle's 2nd city Whipped a monument so I could work the gold and corn as soon as I could.Took the fail gold from Sh as I was more desperate for the gold to get writing than the wonder itself. Thought about the orcale but opted not too. With a plan to play it nice I had to Rex as much as I could cause Justinian is a pest when it comes to expanding. With Just and Wang both founding religions, I really wanted to get in Just religion as he is a crazy zealot so I wanted to get on his good side. When De Caulle converted I was even more certain. Problem was that Wang was in missionary mode while Just wasn't .
I wasn't interested in switiching right away for a few reasons. I could hope one of
De Gaulle or Just would ask me so I could get relation pts. And there wasn't much need until I could get Mono. And I wanted to tech trade with Wang so it had to wait for Alpha. After writing I went Aesth in hope to trade for Alpha. But boy was the tech rate super slow. But my plans to build the mids was gone 1400 BC! Had only put 1 or 2 turns into it.... And of course the oracle went 600 BC! Never seen that on Immortal. And I waited and waited and no alpha... Started to tech math which wasn't a great idea at the time. Once De Gaulle got Alpha I took it and backfilled most of the techs. After I got Mono I switched to buddism and built missionaries to get to everyone.
While I knew Just and Wang would have a hard time to find space I was a bit worried with all the land De Gaulle had. So I sent a settler and some axes and swords over and took a barb city and settled another next to it. I knew maintinence would be a problem but DE Gaulle getting 10+ cites would also be a problem. I had to raze another barb city as it would be to much. De Gaulle had a settler ready and settled that spot... One of the reasons I took it was that I was desperate for gold. I limped to currence and the fact that De Gaulle got it before me saved my *** so I could trade some tech for 100 gold. Anyway I am now sitting at 8 cities, De Gaulle 8, Just 6 and Wang 5. After some ***kissing Just and De Gaulle are in my religion and pleased and Wang is annoyed. Have just teched col and met Mehmet who is way behind. With no phants and no great commerce land I hope to keep the peace and go CS-lib and use cuirs or cannons. Never any wonders for me when I play imm.

 

[The Oz-Man]

the HRE was not holy, not Roman, and not an empire.

SIP, build Pyramids, use them to overcome Chuck's crippling mediocrity, I think?

 

[Pengu]

imm until 860 AD

Spoiler :

Well, I tried to go peacefully and took Cs and went for music. Unfortunately one of the 2 civs I haven't met got there before me
Then Wang just backstabbed me to get a few workers by my border and took an unguarded new city. I traded for feu and took my city back and easily repelled his stack. I lost 6 in total and he around 15-20. Finally he accepted peace after 10-15 turns. hate this as I was forced to build longbows and lost valuable time. For some reason he like Just from the start so I was hated a little bit more. But Wang has 5 cites while the rest of us had twice as many so he has no chance. I think I'll try to go for cannons and my main target is France. Just is friendly with me and Wang is a nobody.
Unfortunately this delay means I won't be getting chemistry from lib and instead I'll just try and get it as I also don't know how far ahead the other continent is. Nobody I have met have edu and I have 6-7 turns to lib now, maybe faster if i go all wealth.
Only De Gaulle has engineering and he won't trade it though. I hope one of the others get it so I can trade for it. Hey, at least I have 15 longbows....

 

[shulgi]

emp 800 AD

Spoiler :

Going fairly well, solid tech lead and 12 cities with one more on the way. Justinian seems land screwed or didn't expand fast enough, believe he's at 4 cities so I aligned myself with the Hindus, founded by Wang and with De Gaulle following along even though I had more Buddhist cities. Haven't made major efforts for the marble wonders. AP went recently built by Wang so I am now spreading Hindu and Hindu buildings. Considering making war on Justinian since the Buddhist shrine and great library would be nice to own and I might be able to take him out with knights before he gets to pikemen. Same as with pengu, was concerned about De Gaulle owning a lot of land so I sent a settler, three archers and a force of swords for two barb cities. Now have three cities on De Gaulle's West coast - unfortunately none have very good production though good potential otherwise.

Relations are Wang - pleased, De Gaulle - cautious, Justininan - annoyed. Also have met Mehmed who is somewhere and also Buddhist.

Would like circumnavigate first and trying to decide where to place that priority along with guilds (currently researching), engineering - could research, liberalism / paper. Actually paper seems good after guilds since I will have a lot of religious buildings and already have stone so Sankore is a good option after guilds.

 

[Pangaea]

Looks like a rough start, but think I'll settle in place. PH next to river is decent. So much plains around too, there doesn't seem to be a good case for moving and losing a turn.

Want to complete the Washington NC first though.

Seriously, people, how can you play so quickly? A few hours after the NC is posted, and somebody have bloody well finished it? Admittedly I'm a slow player on a crap computer, but it boggles the mind how people can fly through to 1AD and beyond in an hour.

 

[aitkensam]

Emperor 1AD

Spoiler :

If anyone has advice on my thoughts re moving cap, and also whether building all the WW in cap was terrible would be appreciated!

Tech went Ag,AH,Mas,TW,Min,BW,Pott,Med,Priesthood,Math iirc
Prod went worker,warrior,settler (no early BW so not much to keep extra worker busy).

First city went by the gold/corn to the south. Planned to get lots of cottages and I guess turn into capital later (don't often move cap but trying to notice when its a good idea recently...).

Went early masonry and wheel cos I decided to get SH for the first time in a while. Built in cap in 6 turns so then I decided to go TGW too, so fast to build...

Second went east to wheat/sheep (within first ring cos Wang already settled it in his 2nd ring). Third went NW to coastal sheep/corn. Fourth picked up the copper when I finally got BW (directly E of gold, bit food poor but need the res and at least can work cottages for future cap) .

By now I'd decided to Oracle Construction and go for early war. Another reason for the copper city, nice and close to targets.

Picked up mids too (all 3 wonders in cap, whoops gpp polluted to death) so Spy went for GA and Prophet is waiting for now, scientist coming next I hope! Doh!

It was a Buddhist lovefest so got a request from Just as pleased for peace treaty then declared on Wang with ~8cats,5axes.

He is down to 1 city now (will be gone in 2-3 turns) and I'm up to 10 cities (soon 11) at 1AD.

CoL is in so spamming rathaus all over, next curr then I guess I'll wait for Cuirs before killing the world.

 

[WorstChord]

Haven't played Civ for a while and can't log in to my old account (can't remember username/password), but feel like having a crack at this. I'm a bit rusty, but I'll have a crack on Emperor. Should be a laugh.

Kinda tempted to settle 2E on the Stone. I know I lose the river bonus, but Charlie's starting techs aren't that great, so I don't feel like I've time to make an early game diversion to Masonry to hook up the Stone. Would rather crack on with more important worker techs. Plus it gives me the very tempting option of a quick Stonehenge in the capital. I know Great Prophets don't have the greatest rep, but I kinda like them in the early game as they can aid a struggling economy if needed. Oracle slingshot to Code of Laws also tempting.

 

[dalamb]

Seriously, people, how can you play so quickly?

You haven't seen TheMeInTeam lately; he's in the running for Deity of Speed Civving.

I'm famously at the opposite end of the scale. It takes me 20-30 hours over several days to play a game, which is likely part of the reason I have so much trouble finishing one.

Part of the difference is likely that people who play fast don't waste much time dithering over choices, which is one of my main problems. Also, there is likely an "expert effect" where people who have finished a lot of games recognize patterns and situations a lot faster than us plodders who don't have as much experience.

Edit: speaking of dithering, I'm puzzling over tech order. Agriculture in 13 turns, worker in 18 seems about right. Given that there's only 1 hill to mine pre-BW, I suspect AH > Mining > BW is next.

 

[Pangaea]

You haven't seen TheMeInTeam lately; he's in the running for Deity of Speed Civving.

I'm famously at the opposite end of the scale. It takes me 20-30 hours over several days to play a game, which is likely part of the reason I have so much trouble finishing one.

Part of the difference is likely that people who play fast don't waste much time dithering over choices, which is one of my main problems. Also, there is likely an "expert effect" where people who have finished a lot of games recognize patterns and situations a lot faster than us plodders who don't have as much experience.

Edit: speaking of dithering, I'm puzzling over tech order. Agriculture in 13 turns, worker in 18 seems about right. Given that there's only 1 hill to mine pre-BW, I suspect AH > Mining > BW is next.

I've read that thread, and it's excellent. However, seems like my playstyle is much similar to yours. I diddle over choices and try to figure out the ideal path for exploring warriors and starting worker management and things like that, and at times tinker and ponder over what techs to research, particularly past Liberalism.

Think you are correct that experienced players with hundreds or maybe even thousands of games behind them will know and do these things efficiently without a second's thought, while players like myself with maybe ten games worth of experience will be a lot more unsure what to do at any given moment.

Have currently clocked up 32 hours in the previous NC

 

[dalamb]

I'm taking this in fairly small steps, partly to seek advice and partly to show some novices how an almost-Monarch player handles the situation (mistakes and all, as the commenters will no doubt point out).

Need advice on placement of 3rd settler:

Spoiler :

SIP, intended to tech Agr > Mining > AH > BW > Wheel > Pottery > Writing, but got AH and Masonry from huts. Now working on Oracle techs (med > priest). I've started seeing barb warriors, and so am hoping to hook up copper before they start entering my borders.

Built stonehenge (before connecting stone) to get the border pops. I wonder about going for the 'mids but there are only a few places with enough food to support a specialist economy (the usual route with Pyramids/Representation).

Maps:
I settled Prague SW to block De Gaulle, then Vienna 1NW of the copper. Ideally I'd like to have settled 1N of where I did but with Wang so close I wanted copper in the inner ring.

Looks like De Gaulle has some nice territory to his west; I doubt I can get there before he does if I'm cautious about not building too many cities pre-Rathaus. I didn't finish exploring SW because a barb warrior killed my scout.

Spoiler the west :

Am I wrong? That, is, should I send my just-whipped 3rd settler west?

In the north it seems like I ought to claim the deer and some of the furs (at least one for a resource and preferably some more for trading).

Spoiler North dotmap :

Orange is my best guess; 3 deer give +6:food which lets me work some foodless tundra tiles.

Justinian and De Gaulle are moderately fond of each other and hate Wang, so eventually Korea is my first target despite his protective archers. Sorry, Robert FIN; Justinian gets to live for a little while.

Edit: attachment deleted

 

[Kyle Everett]

for dalamb

Spoiler :

I didn't manage to settle anything to my north and east because I was more concerned with blocking De Gaulle off first. I'm a big fan of horses since guilds is rather easy to get. I settled a city 1SE of the horse. You have SH so you'll be able to get the wet wheat up fast enough to make a decent enough city there. The furs and deers don't seem to be that important cause you should have 3-4 wine resources to trade with and until astronomy there's usually not a huge amount of variety on your starting continents.

 

[iggymnrr]

A settler-level adventure ... 23 cities by 500 BC.

Spoiler :

After WBing in the missing techs for BK I started playing settler level in earnest. Religion spam. (Not my normal approach.) I may or may not finish the game. SIP and built a scout right away. AH->polytheism. Hut luck was okay IIRC: worker->masonry->scout->settler->settler->settler->gold. 1st city settled was tundra 3x deer & 2x fur ->polytheism border popped. 2nd city was wheat and sheep, missing copper ->monotheism & GW border popped for 3rd ring copper. 3rd city was horse & cows by France. AIs did not have archery or slavery when I attacked. France got chariot rushed. Then I got some practice with an axe rush, emphasis on the singular.

Spoiler :

Justinian went bye-bye a few turns later. Capitol was moved. By 1 AD, I had the AP, UoS and SM done. Religious economy. Shrine before academy. Oxford was finishing up a couple of turns later.

Spoiler :

It's not my fastest settler game, but not the worst either. (I have lost my capitol to a settler level AI before.)

 

[The Oz-Man]

AP Diplomation, 1775, Monarch:

Spoiler :

Pretty straightforward, but what was most interesting was getting sandwiched in by De Gaulle and Wang right off the bat. I was able to fit in about five good cities, got the Pyramids and Stonehenge (It took four turns and Wang had stolen all the food because Wang is a jerk). Oracle'd Construction and took out Wang with Axes/Catapults/Swords, then waited for Cuirs and Cavs to vassalize De Gaulle, my besty Justinian (Yup, Robert, Justinian was my bestest pal!), Mehmed, and Bull. I was teching to Mass Media when Sury captured a barb city and got Buddhism, and the very next turn the Diplo victory vote came up. I beat Justinian.

Thanks for the map, dalamb!

Oh, P.S., the Rathaus is amazing. I normally hate how expensive Courthouses are, but Chuck's is so worth it.

 

[Pengu]

Imm until 1360

Spoiler :

Right after my treaty with Wang expiired he opened borders and traded engineering to me. The turn after he redeclared on me with a pathetic stack of 10 units.
I took zero losses and his stack was gone. I got some gold for peace and libbed Chemistry. in hindsight I could have hold on a little to get steel but I didn't dare. So I teched towards steel and positioned to attack france, who had just switched religion.
And boy did the rng screw me over. Lost several cannons vs longbows and knights when I had 75-85% odds. Just ridicoulus. Really wanted to reload a few times as it delayed me. Him capping was inevitable though. meanwhile I met the Khmer and the Native Americans. Sury did have 15 cites but he wasn't more advanced than me. Anyway, De Gaulle FINALLY capped after losing 5 of his cities including Paris. He had no army left but refused to cap. Now I think Justinian is next as he is the biggest threat on the continent. He soon has grenadiers alo, but not that close to rifling. Wang with his 5 cities will be taken care of. After that the boring part begins with shippng units over to another continent to wage war. Hopefully Sury hasn't become to advanced by then. But I am in the lead with 15 cites and a vassal and I will take over the continent and that will be game I believe.