NC XLV - Zara Yaqob

[calla]

@ civilizedtiger

Spoiler :

hm all cottages and no farms? as for my tech build, from my last post i grabbed alphabet and went up to CoL, then switched to aestthetics to lit for the great library. after that, cs, traded for mach, then beelined to gunpowder for the uu units and then steel for cannons. i tried to trade along the way to fill in but it didnt work too well b/c bismark, darius, and fdr tech so fast. not sure how to keep them preoccupied

 

[CivilizedTiger]

@calla

Spoiler :

No one said no farms. You always farm farmable resources, such as corn, wheat and rice. But yeah, with the exception of your GP farm, all other green cities were perfect for cottages, helping you tech insanely fast. Of course, you mustn't forget about two-three production cities. I've recently lost a game as Joao having all green land and eagerly cottaging all of it, but having only one production city, so it's no wonder that when Hannibal showed up at my doorstep, that I only had half his army.

Anyway, you must specialize cities, and on this map, you can specialize a lot of cities for commerce/research, if you so choose.

Darius is a financial leader, so you'd expect him to tech fast. Bismarck isn't too good of a techer, though. However, if you had a slightly better economy, you could trade at their rate or higher. And you can get a good economy if you at least get 2-3 cottage cities and you don't go to war early, as there's really no need for that here.

 

[drlake]

Prince/Epic to 1000AD:

Spoiler :

The last 915 years have been kind to the Ethiopian people, as their empire has grown and prospered. I did some (late) rapid expansion, and managed to bring my empire up a bit in the league tables as a result.

Here is the southern tier of my empire:

Development of these cities is going nicely. Almost all of the Dyes have been set up with plantations, and the surplus traded away for gold (and relationship boosts).

Here is the central tier:

I built three cities in this tier since the 85AD update, most recently Adulis on the West coast. I will probably put one more in, 1W of the Banana, since there is enough green land in that area to make a decent commerce city.

Here is the northern tier:

The barbarians generously contributed Sakae to my empire, and I decided that location worked well enough. I could have razed the city, built one 1W of the Copper and another one 1SW of the Wheat, but that didn't seem to offer enough benefit to be worth it. One more border pop and I get stone into the empire, way later than it does any good. /sigh

Here's the city summary screen:

I need to work more on generating GPPs, and spreading Hinduism (my state religion).

Aksum:

At the moment, a commerce/production hybrid. I'm thinking of making it more of a commerce/GP hybrid, now that I can allow my population to grow.

Gondar:

One of my main production cities, though also some commerce thanks to the dyes. My main military base as well, as you can see. I'm going to pump out some cats for defense, in the near future.

Lalibela:

The other main production city, though again due to Gold with some commerce. This will be my main cavalry production site in the near future.

Addis Ababa:

Could make this work as a GP farm, or a commerce city. I should probably make it my GP farm, now that I think about it, and specialize Addis Ababa as a commerce city. I've got some forests there I can chop to get the basic buildings up quickly, or can whip them out (I'll switch to Caste System soon, though).

Yeha:

This is one of my newer cities, and I haven't decided what to do with it. Probably commerce, once I get more of the Jungle cleared.

Debre Berhan:

Another newer city, this one is made to be a production city. Eventually, I'll probably shift Gondar toward commerce after Debre Berhan's infrastructure is complete.

Adulis and Sakae:
I haven't thought about what to do with these two, yet. Sakae has some nice hills around it, so it could be a sweet Moai city for production. Adulis has enough green land that it'll probably be a commerce city.

Foreign Relations:

The war of Boudica vs. Fred, Izzy, and Roosevelt just began a couple turns before. The three of them are the Buddhist block (AP religion) while the rest of us are the Hindu block. So far, Darius and Qin have stayed out of the war, as have I.

I finally opened my borders, after filling in my hinterland to the point it is currently at. The commerce boost is certainly helping.

Tech Race:

I'm not the tech leader, but I'm not far behind. I'm still running a 60% science rate, and actively trading techs around as I get the chance.

Tech Tree:

I'm working on Paper right now, and planning a beeline to Liberalism. I think I can win that race, but I'm going to need to watch the competition carefully since some of these guys are definitely not slackers.

Border regions:


Boudica is pretty much my only direct neighbor, and is happy enough with me due to trade and tribute that she's directing her aggressions elsewhere. I'm currently starting to send out scouts to update my maps, now that I have open borders with almost everyone (Izzy excepted).

As noted, I'm racing for Lib now. After that, I'll probably work on a combination of backfilling techs and getting gunpowder for the UU. I'll be watching what happens to Boudica, and may DoW her to grab some cities if she starts to lose the war she's in.

How am I doing?

 

[drlake]

Prince/Epic at 1500AD:

Spoiler :

The gods continue to smile on the Ethiopian people. In the last 500 years, I climbed the league tables to become the score leader. Other than a brief "phony war" with Izzy that Boudica dragged me into, I have been at peace the entire game. That can't last forever...

Here is the empire:




I've now placed every city I plan to within this territory. I realized after my last posting that I should have razed Sakae and built two cities to replace it, one located 1W of the northern Copper and 1SW of the Wheat up there. That would have more efficiently used the space, and allowed me to get Stone into the BFC of a city. Not a game-breaker, though.

City Overview:


A decent mix of infrastructure and troops under production, IMO.

Aksum:

My main commerce city. I'm going to switch a grassland or two to cottages, I think. Still has decent military production capability if needed, too.

Gondar:

In the process of switching over to a commerce city. Still building needed infrastructure and cottaging the jungle in the area. I still have a couple of forests I can chop when it is useful, or leave for happiness.

Lalibela:

My main production city, so built the HE there. Pretty much maxed out for size, and I'll put a lumbermill in the remaining forest once I finish researching Replaceable Parts.

Addis Ababa:

My GP farm. Still building some infrastructure there, but the main focus is now GPP.

Yeha:

A commerce city in development. Still building infrastructure there.

Debre Berhan:

My other main production city. I'm leaving all the forests atm so that I can chop like mad to build a useful wonder. So far, I haven't completed any, but DB here is gonna give me one!

Sakae:

A production city in development. I'll probably use for my main naval production site.

Adulis:

Another production city in development.

Qohaito:

My newest city, and a commerce city to be. Still a lot of work needed here.

Foreign Relations:

Still friendly with my Hindu crew, not so much with everyone else.

Tech Race:

I'm tied as the tech leader, so I've gained some ground since 1000.

Tech Tree:

Working on Replaceable Parts, since I have a couple of locations I want to put Lumber mills in. I have no idea what to do after that, though.

VC Screen:

Now the biggest empire, which gives me a certain amount of security. That, and the good relations with my closest neighbors is a good place to be.

So, where do I go from here? I'm tempted to go for a Space or Diplomatic Victory. I doubt that anyone can win the UN vote given the current relations between civs, but we'll see. Beyond that, I'm going to start building up the navy I'll need if I ever go to war. I expect that any future wars will be against Izzy, Bismarck, or Roosevelt. Bismarck is probably the toughest of them at the moment, but is the easiest to reach since I can just sail West. Unfortunately, Bismarck beat me to proving the world round by a few turns, so he's got the faster ships.

Any suggestions?

 

[Siran]

Prince/Epic Domination Win in 1814

Would have been earlier but

Spoiler :

Roosevelt told me, he wouldn't capitulate because he was afraid of my enemies. Capitulated a turn later to Isabella. Isabella is at war with me. How come you are not afraid of her enemies?

Till 725 BC

Spoiler :

Founded Aksum SW of the starting position to get that rice, a little bit more production and the connection to the sea didn't hurt either.

Build order in Aksum:
Worker -> Warrior -> Settler -> Warrior -> Worker -> Barracks -> Granary-> 8 Axeman

Research was:
Bronze Working -> The Wheel -> Pottery -> Writing -> (Archery) -> Alphabet

I founded Gondar 2350 BC one W of the eastern copper.
Build order: Barracks -> 6 Axemen -> Library

1000 BC I declared war on Boudica, captured and razed Tolosa .
950 BC I attacked and captured Bibracte .
825 BC I captured and razed Gergovia.
725 BC I captured and razed Vienne, killing Boudica.



Screenshots are a little earlier. Didn't save after killing Boudica

Till 1365 AD

Spoiler :

Started settling peacefully. OK, I captured a few barbarian cities but that's it.

Science order: Alphabet (500 BC) -> Mysticism, Fishing, Animal Husbandry (trade 485 BC) -> Sailing (trade 290 BC) -> Mathematics (trade 200 BC) -> Currency (125 BC) -> Masonry (trade 110 BC) -> Code of Laws (175 AD) -> Calendar (trade 190 AD) -> Polytheism (trade 220 AD) -> Aesthetics (280 AD) -> Meditation, Priesthood, Monotheism (trade 295 AD) -> Metal Casting (trade 355 AD) -> Literature (355 AD) -> Civil Service (685 AD) -> Monarchy (trade 715 AD) -> Machinery (trade 745 AD) -> Paper (870 AD) -> Theology, Horseback Riding, Construction (trade 880 AD) -> Philosophy (990 AD) -> Education (1220 AD) -> Liberalism, Nationalism (1295 AD) -> Engineering (1325 AD) -> Drama, Feudalism (1355 AD) -> Gunpowder (1360 AD)







700 BC I got Hittite from some barbs who settled it almost where I had wanted to put my city. Decided to keep it anyway.


305 BC founded Lalibela, captured Assyrian




215 BC Addis Ababa founded


95 BC Yeha founded


20 BC Debre Berhan founded


10 AD Adulis founded

235 AD Darius declares war on Isabella and gets more than he bargained for. Bismarck declares also. 505 AD Bismarck asks me to join them. As Darius is half way around the world and probably pretty occupied by Isabella and Bismarck I agree. Never see a single enemy unit in the whole war.
Gets me some favors with Isabella and Bismarck. Not much comes out of the war and till 775 AD everybody is at peace again.

775 AD Qohaito founded


860 AD China decides to attack Darius.

910 AD Matara founded


1070 AD Darius and Qin Shi are at peace again.

1140 AD Circassian caputured from some barbarians


1335 AD Hawulti founded


It took me forever to fill all that land and to get enough workers to make use of it. All the time trying not to get left behind in the tech trade.
Now I have Gunpowder and Nationalism and most of my production cities have been building catapults and trebuchets for the last couple of rounds. I plan to attack Qui Sin next.

 

[bamdorf]

Just starting hope I can catch up!
Playing at Noble.
Start didn't look too good. I moved my scout e sw on to the hill to get a wide view.
Didnt see much so I move my settle sw to be on the sea or big lake whatever it is.
Settled there.

 

[bamdorf]

I started with agri (I see tiles to farm).
Then bronze working -> wheel -> mysticism.

My plan is to shoot for stonehenge then lay off the wonders.
My scout will go CCW starting to the east then coming around. If I find a civ quick I will try a rush.

I build a war first to let the city grow and have another scout unit - also - if I find a civ REALLY close, I will might try a warrior rush and will need that unit.

The first hut popped AH. Not bad.

Spoiler :

After 2-3 turns i find Celts. While I explore I start thinking about rushing Bod.

 

[bamdorf]

Start phase 1.

Spoiler :

When my war finishes, my cap has just hit 3 and I start a worker.
The warrior starts looking to the west a short ways - then he will head back to cap.
Scout pops some more money and continues CCW. I judge Bod is too far for a super early rush.
Not a lot of chopping to do anyway from cap. I consider an axe rush.

My war does a tight ccw movement. When bronze working finishes, however, the war has revealed enough for me to
see copper in the spot adjacent to the cap just west along the coast.

Now is a choice point. I can abandon mysticism and go for the axe rush. That sounds like fun.
I can build a second city next to the copper, building a road meanwhile, and head east.

I dump mysticism for wheel -> iron working.
There are horses next to cap I could also consider a chariot rush. But chariots are so weak..hmmm.
I will decide after I get wheel.

I switched to slavery right away.

The worker pops and I start a settler. Pedal to the metal I am trying.
I will pasture the horses before the farms...more pluses.

I stick with iron working as it is faster than horse training.

I am finishing rounding out the "island" I seem to be on, with my scout. What's behind Bod I don't know.

I have to decide whether to build a road for the horses or go develop the farms first. I will need the road, and its only 2 tiles. I do that.
I could start building chariots now. Guess I am still thinking about it. I am going to finish the settler for sure.


After the settler I start another worker. I send the settler to the suggested spot. This may be a mistake, its a little father west....However,

it is close to some woods spots so that more than compensates

IW finishes and I am going to go archer-> horseback to get horse archers at some point.
My two workers leap frog to connect Gondar city 2 and the bronze. Gondar starts a warrior, what else. They will be needed to hold off

barbs while I rush B

I start an axman asap in Gondar...Cap also after releases the third settler. That is it for cities. Now we rush.

I get a stack of eight and start off. I am researching mysticism and pottery meanwhile.

On turn 82 i see a very small bod city with my ax stack. Let's see.
Two archers and a chariot in Bibracte. I should be ok. It's not a hill. I lose three axes, and take the city. My unused units wheel and head

for Bod' third city. I am going to have to wait for my stuff to heal though. My momentum is slowed...I chose to build another settler in my

city three to get the iron that is north.

This is discouraging. while I move up my healed workers I find that Bod had buid two more archers in city 3. Ouch. On the other hand, my

horse archer is getting 64% odds. Hmmm.

Turn 103 I have finished the job. Two more horse archers did it. The other city had only one archer. I should have razed it, but I was

stupid what can I say. Now to try to pull out of economic disaster.

My plan is to get priesthood and chop rush as I can cottages and temples. Of course big problem is that I don't have a religion yet, LOL!

Here's the situation:

____________________________________________ End of phase 1.

Comments from you experts please!

 

[BigTime]

^ @ Bamdorf Since there are still people who may wish to play the game, put all that in spoilers please. Otherwise, you're doing a good job.

 

[bamdorf]

^ @ Bamdorf Since there are still people who may wish to play the game, put all that in spoilers please. Otherwise, you're doing a good job.

Thanks, I think I fixed it.

 

[BigTime]

Thanks, I think I fixed it.

Yup It's all fine now! From now on remember that in Noble's Club (and any other series, such as Monarch Student and Immortal University) you generally put your ideas on the map in spoilers.

 

[bamdorf]

I need some ideas/comments on my situation at 1150 AD. Noble game. (Save game below-- if I didn't do it right let me know, thanks.)

Spoiler :

After rushing Bod I consolidated building infrastructure like crazing, trading with the AI. Hinduism leaked into one city so went to Hinduism and missionaired it across the civ. When my economy stabilized a bit I started filling in cities and also placed a couple on the shore to the NE to forestall the AI.

General possibilities.

1. I can try to turtle the rest of the game and get a cultural win, perhaps.

2. I can continue with infrastructure and cities for while and see if I can push up a tech lead. When I get to rifles and cannons I can go on the attack all out.

3. I can wait even longer if I seem to be gaining and attack with artillery, tanks, and bombers. I sense that will be too late...am I right about that?

4. I can go all out as soon as I can build trebs and knights.

Point is, how do I think about this? What should I consider?

I am thinking that since I can fight a one front war I should go for it...but when? The sooner the better? Am I too late already?

Specific questions.

1. Since the other AI is buddhist, should I try to go to free religion and give up Hinduism, or try to convert to buddhist at some point?

2. I thought getting a few key wonders would be helpful, like 100% less war weariness. But I don't plan to build many more. Thoughts?

3. Doh, is the national epic 100% GP production a city only thing or nation wide? I suspect I blundered here.

Thanks for any comments.

 

[SilentConfusion]

I am playing this on Immortal/Normal, although the barbs seem to lack archery (I've fought a lot of barb warriors) and I didn't know to give it to them, so it's Immortal with watered-down barbs.

This is my game up until 950BC:

Spoiler :

I sent my scout 1S then 1NW and spied the rice. I decided to move my settler 1SW losing the dye and gaining the rice and becoming coastal. With the food and the plains hills I'd have enough growth and production early from my capitol, although Calendar will be needed for dyes.




I set a warrior to build while teching BW.




When Aksum reached population two and BW had exactly half the turns left that it would take to build a worker, I switched production to a worker, and when BW finished I revolted to slavery immediately and then whipped the worker the next turn. The warrior finished the turn after that. Using this method the worker was generated on turn 17 instead of 15, but I got my first warrior on turn 18, much sooner than otherwise.




When I had gotten to this point in my scouting and hadn't found anyone's cultural borders, I knew I could probably claim a lot of land.




Early on I met a Celtic scout, and later I met a Chinese and a Persian scout, and finally the last contact made up to this point was with a German scout. All of these guys came from the East, so I figured I had what was north of me all to myself if I could block it off.

Then I finally find where Boudica lives.




I realize that I can block her off a lot by placing a city near the copper and bananas with 1 border pop.




I get my settler there without incident.




I notice that I can completely seal out all those Easterners with one more city. I placed the city to claim the corn rather than the clam just because it was more food. I had lost my scout in this area and I lost a warrior right before my settler moved in. I dodged them with my worker and killed them with another warrior I quickly built.




The barbarians founded a couple cities for me in the north, one of which is where I would have put a city anyway. The other one will have to be raised. Since I opened borders with Boudica so she'd spread her religion to me, I have to be a little careful that she doesn't capture one of these cities.




The whole while I used warriors to spawn bust. Once the barb cities spawned the defenders helped with that too. The blue BFC marks on the map represent the 5x5 no-barb-spawn zones.




At 950BC, where I stopped, I have my two Eastern blocker cities up. The copper/'nana city is almost connected to the capitol and the copper is turns away from being hooked up. My capitol has made 2 settlers, 3 workers, a granary, a library, and many warriors.






The land up north:




I plan on focusing my attention on having workers build improvements and settling/capturing from barbs the northern area I have blocked off. I also plan to run some scientists to help with tech rate and to build an Academy. I have OBs with every known civ and so far not much interaction, so no diplo dings or anything.

My tech path was BW>Ag>Wheel>Myst>Pott>Writ>Fish. Mysticism was a mistake. I'm not used to playing with a Creative leader and totally forgot I didn't need monuments to seal off that Eastern area. It was 6 or 7 wasted tech turns. From this point I am going to go Alpha or AH>Alpha. I don't have a need for quick pasturage, but having horses visible would be nice when settling and it shouldn't take that long. I plan to trade Alphabet for IW and maybe Math, then see where I stand. I'm not planning an early war on Boudica unless she appears really weak. I will instead focus on settling my land and hopefully become strong religious friends with her. Don't know what type of victory this will lend itself to. Too early to tell.

 

[calla]

@siran

Spoiler :

how do you take out boudica so quickly? usually i can take a city but the culture defense + archers make things very slow

 

[Trystero]

I need some ideas/comments on my situation at 1150 AD. Noble game. (Save game below-- if I didn't do it right let me know, thanks.)

I had a quick look at your save and have a few comments:

Spoiler :

After rushing Bod I consolidated building infrastructure like crazing, trading with the AI. Hinduism leaked into one city so went to Hinduism and missionaired it across the civ. When my economy stabilized a bit I started filling in cities and also placed a couple on the shore to the NE to forestall the AI.

Your position here isn't bad at all (Good job taking out Boudica. ), but I noticed a few things that would improve it further:

You have a ton of land available to to you, but only 8 cities and 6 workers. Also, your cities are working a lot of undeveloped tiles. A good rule of thumb is 1.5 workers/city. You want to avoid having to work undeveloped tiles, if possible.

A related matter: You are building infrastructure you don't need at this point: Yeha is building a Market, but is only producing 3 per turn and doesn't have issues. Those hammers could be better spent on workers or settlers. You are building a Forge in Addis Abba (whose base production is 9), but not in Bibracte (22 base production). Also since you are running HR, I would have built units, rather than a Colosseum in Lalibela to deal with issues.

On the diplomatic front: None of your relations are better than "Cautious". You are the only Hindu. With everyone else Buddhist, you are going to have problems. Liberalism (and FR) are still a ways away at this point. You need to either hope Buddhism spreads to you, or build up your military to avoid getting dog-piled.

Finally, you need to do more exploration of your rivals territories (you have OB with everyone). Send a chariot to find the closest Buddhist city, and build a road to it. (The only Chinese city I can see is Christian).

3. Doh, is the national epic 100% GP production a city only thing or nation wide? I suspect I blundered here.

The NE bonus only applies to the city in which it is built.

If I could make one final suggestion, I would use that Great Artist in Aksum for a Golden Age to get out workers and settlers faster. Also, you might find this thread useful.

Good luck!

 

[bamdorf]

Many thanks. A little more common sense approach to what to build needs to overcome the desperate (apparently) need to balance the econonmy.

And I need to learn how to run specialists.

I do have a follow up question about libraries. I have tended to build these in border cities even if they don't produce much science...because of the culture. The alternative would be more units.

 

[Siran]

@siran

Spoiler :

how do you take out boudica so quickly? usually i can take a city but the culture defense + archers make things very slow

Spoiler :

How many axemen do you build?
If you build not enough you get the problem I myself had many times: You can hurt the archers but don't have enough power to kill all units in the city, giving the AI time to build another archer and promote the surviving units. As they heal a lot faster than your units and don't have to be move across a whole lot of land, you get stuck.
I think 10 axemen was a good number to start attacking at prince. On noble eight should be enough as you won't find as many archers.
A friend told me a few weeks back, I should build enough units to win the war before I declared. I started winning on prince after that.

It's also a good idea to attack the capital earlier rather than later. That city is often the one with best production and the most culture. If you already lost too many units on cities you don't mean to keep, the capital can't be defeated.
In such an early war if you get the capital, you get a breathing space. You will produce faster than your enemy and it takes some time to get the culture up to a level where it's going to hurt you.

In Boudicas case: Tolosa was right next to Gondar, so I didn't have far to go. Between Aksum and Gondar I had a road, so reinvorcements came fast and I didn't lose many units. I think it was one in Tolosa and two in Bibracte. So I had 7 old axemen and the reinforcements to tackle the last two cities. I was only mopping up then and already took the last two axemen in Aksum to go after a barbarian city.

 

[Sincro]

@drlake

Spoiler :

Prince/Epic to 1000AD:
I finally opened my borders, after filling in my hinterland to the point it is currently at. The commerce boost is certainly helping.

I assume you didn't open borders because you didn't want the AIs to settle the area behind your main border with Boudica. However, the AI will not send settler teams through your culture, so once you have the land culturally blocked off, you can open borders immediately.

 

[drlake]

@Sincro

Thanks! I didn't realize that, though I saw a comment someone made on another thread that had me wondering about that. My years of Civ3 showing through...

 

[Trystero]

I do have a follow up question about libraries. I have tended to build these in border cities even if they don't produce much science...because of the culture. The alternative would be more units.

It depends on the situation. In this game Zara is Creative. That's +2 right out of the gate. Plus his UB is a Monument (+1) that gives +25%. The other alternative for quick culture is to send missionaries with your settlers (or to captured cities). Cities get +1 for each religion. Plus, you can build Monasteries (+2, 60 on Normal speed) or temples (+1, 80), both of which are cheaper than Libraries (90). And there is always Theatres (+3, 50). If you are running Caste System (or have a Theatre) you can also run an Artist specialist.

The point being that's it's generally better (and less s!) to build a culture building, rather than a research building, if you just need culture.

Also regarding the religion situation in your game:

Spoiler :

It occurred to me after my last post, that the simplest solution might be to convert to No State Religion. You could do this during the Golden Age I proposed with no anarchy. While being Buddhist might be better in this situation, you can at least get rid of the "heathen" diplomatic penalty.