Need advice: Why am I a warmonger?

[HumpbackJack]

Alright, here's the notable points for my game so far at around turn 175ish.

Darius - Emperor - Standard speed - Pangea - Large

Currently my position is the middle of the only continent that narrows in the center and gets bigger towards the ends (a bit like an hourglass, although the middle is about 10-15 tiles wide). I've got Arabia to my west, Incans to the south/southwest, Hiawatha to the southeast, and Russia to the east, with the other directions meeting ocean.

My empire is pretty large being one of the top 3 mostly due to some excellent positioning that let me expo into some prime spots early on with about 6-7 unique resources in my grasp. I've got 8 or 9 cities (non-puppeted) atm with positive happiness. So far, I've only been in one war with Russia and her two city state allies where they declared on me. After I fended off Russia's advance (which was actually pretty deadly), I forced her into a peace treaty (didn't want any of her poor land), and then conquered both the city states that were to my north because they both had a unique luxury that I didn't have yet and were nearby. I annexed them if it matters, because I'm going for a science victory and want the scientist specialists.

Everything was going pretty well until my last turn. It's been about 5-10 turns since I finished annexing the two northern city states and maybe 20-25 turns since I forced Russia into peace. Suddenly, my long-time ally (DoF'ed) Hiawatha denounces me out of nowhere while being Friendly previously, which also provokes France (who I'd been friendly but not DoF'd with all-game) into denouncing me. I check the diplo for EVERYONE (9 AIs) and they all believe I'm a warmongering menace and don't like that my friends denounced me.

I know that prior to conquering the city-states, the only diplo hits I had at all were with Arabia (covets my land), Russia (Friends with an enemy, Previous war, covets my land and wonders, denounced me), and Incans (Covets my land, denounced me, Denounced by me, Refused request as friend in the past), and a minor one with Hiawatha (Refused request as a friend).

So was a conquering those two city-states a giant error that ruined my trading opportunities? If so, for how long? Or could I have puppeted them without a diplo hit? Or was it a case of too many too fast, and should've left the second one for later?

I have no intention of finishing the game with all my diplo plans ruined since I had planned for a mostly peaceful game because I already have almost everything I need. However, I will back up to an auto-save and I'd like to know if there's any way to conquer the city-states without the big diplo hit.

Barring that, I'm hoping for some alternative to having to shell out gold every 30 turns to keep Russia from using them against me (I've got an excellent defensive position against her, but not the city states). I'd get the unique luxuries that way, but they're my best options for expansion since all the good sites have been taken and all the civ cities in reach are in poor land, and those two city-states are in good locations themselves (as well as the third I had planned on conquering). Not conquering the city-states would leave me with very little options to expand horizontally to use up my surplus happiness, but I guess pop growth would take care of it and I wouldn't need theater's or the more advanced happiness buildings as much.



P.S. Unrelated questions that have been bugging me:
Is there a list of diplomatic actions somewhere? I've looked but haven't seen anything.

Is there any maintenance for a tile improvement like a mine or farm? I had thought it was -1 gold for each, but I just read something that said it was 0, can anyone confirm?

Refusing friend's request, does it go away eventually?

Any way to avoid a neighbor coveting my lands? In this game, I have excellent lands while my neighbors are all mediocre or worse. Since I'm in the middle of the continent, I had hoped to become friends with all 4 of my neighbors and force them to expand outward as a buffer against enemies. However since three out of four of my neighbors covet my lands, I'm beginning to wonder if this is a recipe for disaster and if I should become friends with the guys on the edge since they'll likely push inward and become my new neighbors.

 

[TPQ]

Afaik, CCs are considered Civs in their own right and the AI doesn't like it when you conquer a civ completely.

They don't like it when you go to war most of the time, but killing off a civ really makes them hate you. I'd avoid killing off any civs (inc. CCs) if you want to try to keep the AIs on fairly good terms.

In my experience it's better not to make DoF at all with anybody atm, as although you'll miss out on some benefits, you'll also get less hatred from AIs in general and your "friend" is never truly your friend anyway, even if you give them stuff for free like they'll ask for.

I found it easier to keep other civs on good terms by being as neutral as possible, which means avoiding DoF and denunciations of other civs, not warring against CCs, accepting peace when it's offered when you war against another civ and always giving the pleasant/neutral responses to the AIs. It appears to also help to sign RAs often, trade often and accept what they think is a "fair deal" and if you can, sign open borders.

As for the tiles costing maintenance. The only cost of tile maintenance I was aware of was for roads and railroads. Farms and mines don't cost anything afaik..?

 

[tflst5]

One thing i learned very quickly is to not make declarations of friendship lightly. You never want a DOF with a close neighbor, because that neighbor will likely get angry if you expand, and then denounce you. (causing negatives with all other civs). Also, DOF tend to cause AI to ask for help a lot, with many allies asking for tribute you will have to refuse a few... causing them to be angry and possibly denounce.

Then there is the issue with having declarations of friendship with two warring parties. Both of them will be angry with you for being friends with their enemy, causing them to eventually denounce you and the negatives will cascade. I've had two civs at war with each other decide i was the greater menace for being their friend and turn on me.

All in all, i pick civs that are far away, have an AI personality that isn't going to conflict with my goals, and a nurse them an awful lot with gifts, trading, research agreements, etc. In most cases that still isn't enough, but it sure beats being at war with everyone every game.

There may be a list out there with a full description of the AI personalities. I know there are some that don't care as much if you squash city states.

 

[Fizpez2]

I don't know if the last patch changed much but my policy (and a LOT of other people) before the patch was to never DoF anyone, ever, for any reason.

As you experienced there are severe chain reactions which cascade from pissing off the wrong AI at the wrong time - and since the game is basically programmed for the AI to find a way to hate you its going to happen sooner or later anyway.

Yes its possible to go through a game peacefully - I won a OCC culture game and never had anyone so much as go hostile (I think) but I never DoF'd anyone in that game either.

 

[Michl2602]

@OP: You might be looking for this

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=409062

 

[HumpbackJack]

@OP: You might be looking for this

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=409062

Not exactly, as I was looking for a complete list of all diplo +/-'s, but this is closer than anything else I've seen .

Thanks everyone for your responses so far.

 

[Rince]

I'm playing the first game after the patch on a tiny map. I have accepted all DoF from the start and at one point had one with each of them. Since they also like each other, this has lead to the most peaceful game I ever had, without any single war (1500 AD). Quite amazing. We just hang out, renew our friendships and go hunting barbarians together.

 

[riffle]

It seems to me, that the AI really hates me, when I conquer a CS, although they do it often. In my last game I had DoF with India and Spain and was friendly with England, Inca, Siam and Ottomans (basically all of my neighbors). I than conquered a key CS, which was ally of England. I expected to be disliked from England, but what happened is: England went Guarded Ottomans and Spain denounced me. 5 turns later England made peace with Spain and India and DoW to me. Siam and Inca turned guarded. Another 5 turns later Spain and India (my DoF fellows) insta DoW me (without even denouncing me). Some other turns later Inca and Ottomans DoW me too and Siam turned hostile. So at this point I was at war with almost everyone and lost all good relations. I think, that CS conquering should not be treated that badly from the AI, or else conquering a CS should be out of the list of doable things...

 

[Oohforf]

Afaik, CCs are considered Civs in their own right and the AI doesn't like it when you conquer a civ completely.

They don't like it when you go to war most of the time, but killing off a civ really makes them hate you. I'd avoid killing off any civs (inc. CCs) if you want to try to keep the AIs on fairly good terms.

In my experience it's better not to make DoF at all with anybody atm, as although you'll miss out on some benefits, you'll also get less hatred from AIs in general and your "friend" is never truly your friend anyway, even if you give them stuff for free like they'll ask for.

I found it easier to keep other civs on good terms by being as neutral as possible, which means avoiding DoF and denunciations of other civs, not warring against CCs, accepting peace when it's offered when you war against another civ and always giving the pleasant/neutral responses to the AIs. It appears to also help to sign RAs often, trade often and accept what they think is a "fair deal" and if you can, sign open borders.

As for the tiles costing maintenance. The only cost of tile maintenance I was aware of was for roads and railroads. Farms and mines don't cost anything afaik..?

/agree.

When Rome conquered China, almost all the civs went to war with him, even the half that hated Wu. Some with when I conquered Spain, Japan, England (even though Siam took half of her cities, lol), and Siam were cheesed off with me. Catherine, who was my ONLY friend after all the others were guarded towards me, decided to denounce me, because I declared war on Wu and that was the end of all communications with other civs, basically But nobody ever declared war againsed me, as I had the strongest military in the game (Rome surpassed me a couple of times, and he was hostile against me, so I was ready for anything)

All in all, a very dramatic game there. I ended up winning a cultural victory. Civ 5 is like a school yard. >_>

There are bullies (Siam and Rome, Germany (I played as Germany) ), nerds n geeks nobody cares for, and picks on (England, Spain, America (in all my games, even though America could be guarded toward me, he always seemed to be nice, and liked to do diplomacy with me), France, Inca, Aztec, Greece), and snakes who will bite you and not look back on it (Russia, Arabia, Persia)

 

[wcbarney]

It seems to me, that the AI really hates me, when I conquer a CS, although they do it often. In my last game I had DoF with India and Spain and was friendly with England, Inca, Siam and Ottomans (basically all of my neighbors). I than conquered a key CS, which was ally of England. I expected to be disliked from England, but what happened is: England went Guarded Ottomans and Spain denounced me. 5 turns later England made peace with Spain and India and DoW to me. Siam and Inca turned guarded. Another 5 turns later Spain and India (my DoF fellows) insta DoW me (without even denouncing me). Some other turns later Inca and Ottomans DoW me too and Siam turned hostile. So at this point I was at war with almost everyone and lost all good relations. I think, that CS conquering should not be treated that badly from the AI, or else conquering a CS should be out of the list of doable things...

I am your classic warmonger I don't even like bothering with games where I have to settle for a diplo, cultural or science win -- too boring.

Anyway, I never DW on City States. I mean never! I know that it's just my playing style, and nobody else needs to play this way, but I always ally with all the CS that I can. I start with the cultural and maritime CS first (preferring those that are not hostile), and then expand my alliances to include militaristic CS as well. With the right Patronage policies, you get not only food, culture & military units, but luxury & strategic resources and a lot of science as well.

So, I never understand why anyone would rather conquer one of these CS (& get extra unhappiness & not much else) than ally with it. OK, I'll admit that once in awhile I'll steal an early worker from a CS, and then make peace.

 

[riffle]

So, I never understand why anyone would rather conquer one of these CS (& get extra unhappiness & not much else) than ally with it. OK, I'll admit that once in awhile I'll steal an early worker from a CS, and then make peace.

It was at a key location, blocking Elisabeth's path toward me and my capitol (plus luxury, iron and natural wonder). She was allied with the CS and my economy was not pumping enough gold to buy their loyalty. Since I was expecting her to attack me soon, I saw no other option than taking the city with force.

 

[SpearMan153]

ahhh rooky mistake - in ai land taking out a CS is pretty much viewed as genocide

All I did was take over Poland and next thing I know the whole world DOW me for no reason: Hitler