[GS] Need Help on Hungary

[Kwami]

You really need to play the speeds to see the difference.
Whenthe game lasts 3 times as long and things take 3 times as long to build is it much difference? The real differences lay in things like units. Once built a unit still moves normally and fights normally. If you lose units to an attacking force it is very hard to get those back fast enough. If that makes sense. On online speed you just punch out the units. Now that may sound easier and in some ways it feels like it but the less turns and speed change does mean you miss some little benefits. It is very easy on online speed to suddenly wonder where all the turns have gone and you still only have 3 cities.

I get that. I'm just wondering if the early game is much harder on Marathon since the AI has three cities and lots of units, but you have the one city and one Warrior for quite a long time. Surviving early game rushes from the AI might be tough. I suppose that, eventually, you catch up and then the slow speed works in your favor.

 

[Victoria]

Surviving early game rushes from the AI might be tough

If you can get your units out fast enough and in large enough amounts it works in your favour more. How often do you kill AI units?... all the time. In marathon every loss is more serious.
But sure, an early rush when you have built nothing, you can do little about. They start with 5 units and if they want to come your way you are in trouble.
Key to Marathon is the units, build em, take out the opposition units and you will feel happier they will not be able to build many before you can start taking out their cities.
Play peacefully and you are paranoid all the time about a strong attack because it just takes so long to build units.
Online you can just flood units fast but it is about getting all the other stuff done as efficiently as possible because turns just whizz by. It is harder to take civs because they can produce units so fast turn after turn.

 

[lotrmith]

You really need to play the speeds to see the difference.
Whenthe game lasts 3 times as long and things take 3 times as long to build is it much difference? The real differences lay in things like units. Once built a unit still moves normally and fights normally. If you lose units to an attacking force it is very hard to get those back fast enough. If that makes sense. On online speed you just punch out the units. Now that may sound easier and in some ways it feels like it but the less turns and speed change does mean you miss some little benefits. It is very easy on online speed to suddenly wonder where all the turns have gone and you still only have 3 cities.

At Online speeds you can start a war with archers and end it with artillery. Meanwhile back home you need to have been laying down infrastructure and growing your science and culture output. In short, due to the quick speed, every turn matters so much more and you feel the need to maximize everything. I can see the appeal for Lily but it's the opposite of casual.

I mean, ignoring speed, Deity by itself makes it not casual. (Since combat is unchanged, it's easier to kill AI on slower speed because they can't replace their units as quickly)

On slower speeds, you have the freedom to make 'mistakes' like taking your units on exploratory paths to nowhere. As a human, every 'smart' move you make compared to a 'dumb' AI move (better city placement, better district placement, better overall Civ management) has an impact for more turns.

 

[Lily_Lancer]

Victory at T131, Bad finishing time.

You state this, so I reply ....

Then you change your tune

And all after hinting I have not played Hungary in another thread. There is so much 'flying by the seat of your pants' which is why i find it weird you try to go into technical detail because you have a very bright mind but you have not experienced so change your mind all the time. play analyze the say "you must" but do not make statements all the time without this because it makes you less believable. You have the abilities to be a great help but seem to hinder yourself with your approach.

Additionally, the reason GOTM uses great strong start maps is it encourages people to play them. Dump an ugly map like this down and no-one likes to. I out of courtesy gave it a go and its not as hard as other starts I have had but its online and TBH you do not encourage people to because you will just mock them because you did it faster than them

The point is that, even with the 50% bonus, they still look like a blank Civ. Building a market 50% faster than usual is not a noticeable difference. Building a stock exchange may be however that's too late.

I play very casually on this map, I get victory at T131. I'm sure if people tried he must be winning faster than me.

I love online speed, you can actually experience a lot of strategies on online speed. On standard speed things become a little bit dull.

 

[Victoria]

The point is that, even with the 50% bonus,

Oh stop it Lily.
The Levy ability is incredibly powerful, just because you play on a level where is is fairly useless does not stop it being a complete game winner at emperor.
The 50% is also 50% of any district across that river and playing your style of spamming campuses it really helps, not just a half price campus like Korea but a half price university. Yes it has no adjacency but +3 horsemen a
Their UU is great with alliances, just because you do not care about alliances does not mean many people cannot benefit.
And their levy gains them an extra envoy which is nice.

You view is biased and you seem to base it on a game level that few play so you really just sideline the validity of what you say. Since you have gone to online speed your claims have become exaggerated.

I have played more than one game as Hungary where the game was won with the first levy.
Hungarian levy would be hugely powerful at deity marathon...

And given that Karl is saying deity marathon is harder and knowing now that you bypass things like early barb attacks by using online I think Karl may be right.

Personally I rank Hungary not is the highest tier but around B-A because I struggle to get consistency with them after I think 8 games. Not really enough for a proper judgement so am cautious, but you wade in with claims after a deity online grassland start.

 

[Pietato]

Levy
Crushes
Deity

Why do I have to keep saying this? You do not just levy one CS, you levy THEM ALL.

 

[Lily_Lancer]

Oh stop it Lily.
The Levy ability is incredibly powerful, just because you play on a level where is is fairly useless does not stop it being a complete game winner at emperor.
The 50% is also 50% of any district across that river and playing your style of spamming campuses it really helps, not just a half price campus like Korea but a half price university. Yes it has no adjacency but +3 horsemen a
Their UU is great with alliances, just because you do not care about alliances does not mean many people cannot benefit.
And their levy gains them an extra envoy which is nice.

You view is biased and you seem to base it on a game level that few play so you really just sideline the validity of what you say. Since you have gone to online speed your claims have become exaggerated.

I have played more than one game as Hungary where the game was won with the first levy.
Hungarian levy would be hugely powerful at deity marathon...

And given that Karl is saying deity marathon is harder and knowing now that you bypass things like early barb attacks by using online I think Karl may be right.

Personally I rank Hungary not is the highest tier but around B-A because I struggle to get consistency with them after I think 8 games. Not really enough for a proper judgement so am cautious, but you wade in with claims after a deity online grassland start.

If you put your campus adjacent to river then you only get +0 or +1. So you have to choose between production bonus and adjcancy. Same thing applies to River Goddess and Holy Site so River Goddess is not a very good panthenon choice.

Usually Pearl of Danube is for commercial hub, however for commercial hub we only need the market, and a lot of production goes to trader, which does not benefit from Pearl of Danube.

You can't get any bonus from Pearl of Danube for encampments or harbors.

In fact in my game most of the bonus goes to Commercial Hub, and, Entertainment Complexes, which is of course not efficient but just a fun from my casual playstyle of building everything.

For "Hungary is better on lower difficulties instead of Deity" meme:

Even Canada is most powerful if we play Canada on Settler and other Civs on Deity.

 

[legalizefreedom]

The levy ability certainly looks to be powerful, but it has a couple of barriers as I see them from a mid-game peaceful player.

It is very expensive. I'm doing fairly well on gold, but levying costs between 720 and 1200 gold for each CS. That's about all I have at any one point while playing normally. I'm guessing this gets really trivial toward the late game and maybe that's when it is intended to be used.

Levying requires you to already be suzerain. It's a hard sell to spend that much to get two envoys with a CS you're already suzerain of. Maybe they should be able to levy CS units after a certain number of invested envoys (3?). This would be a much easier sell if someone DOWs me, but hasn't happened yet.

 

[Lily_Lancer]

The levy ability certainly looks to be powerful, but it has a couple of barriers as I see them from a mid-game peaceful player.

It is very expensive. I'm doing fairly well on gold, but levying costs between 720 and 1200 gold for each CS. That's about all I have at any one point while playing normally. I'm guessing this gets really trivial toward the late game and maybe that's when it is intended to be used.

Levying requires you to already be suzerain. It's a hard sell to spend that much to get two envoys with a CS your already suzerain of. Maybe they should be able to levy CS units after a certain number of invested envoys (3?). This would be a much easier sell if someone DOWs me, but hasn't happened yet.

Levy is also not useful in late game since CS will only focus on melee, ranged and anti-cav units (They don't build anything else) which you yourself may not focus on (You may on tank or bomber so may not tech towards melee/ranged to upgrade those levied units). Also you cannot combine them together so they lose the benefit from corp/army.

Only useful in mid-game since in mid-game musket and crossbows are mostly used, and also you have to use a lot of money (Halved for the Foreign Ministry, but still a lot). I guess if you manage to combine these together the levied units may be strong. (Although in my game they look like blank.)

 

[Victoria]

Levy is also not useful in late game

1. Golden age points
2. Extra envoys from levying
3. Can save you a turn or 2 in conquering them or slowing down an enemy
4. I use them to raze cities
5. It can misdirect what an AI places it’s envoys.

Useful to me on normal speed on differing difficulties.

 

[Lily_Lancer]

1. Golden age points
2. Extra envoys from levying
3. Can save you a turn or 2 in conquering them or slowing down an enemy
4. I use them to raze cities
5. It can misdirect what an AI places it’s envoys.

Useful to me on normal speed on differing difficulties.

Please explain. Is there any difference between using levied units to raze cities and using your own units to do so?

 

[Victoria]

. Is there any difference between using levied units to raze cities and using your own units to do so?

Ok, I was just thinking of suze on that one, not levy. Still nice.

 

[Lily_Lancer]

Yes, grievances, diplomacy. Not things you may use but many others do.

What?
Have you used levied units to do that?
Or have you really levied any units?
I don't find any difference in grievance using a levied unit to raze city.

 

[Victoria]

I changed my reply before I saw yours. At least I admit I am human and make errors. And I have levied the odd CS, likely many many more than you and have written a guide to help others.
Ok, tired of this now. No surprise you were banned.
I have defended you and tried to help you so much to be less grating.

 

[tetley]

I'm watching this thread closely when it comes to Hungary. I'm looking to try them for the first time on an Immortal Duel map. I'm really worried about getting that first Suze, so I can even begin to use their UA.

 

[Lily_Lancer]

I'm watching this thread closely when it comes to Hungary. I'm looking to try them for the first time on an Immortal Duel map. I'm really worried about getting that first Suze, so I can even begin to use their UA.

Using Amani you can easily get a Suzerain.
However the levy cost is really expensive without Foreign Ministry.

 

[tetley]

The reason I haven't played Hungary already is because I don't see how their Suze ability is that useful, anyway? If you're playing at Deity, you are behind technologically; meaning that you are behind the CS technologically. What good is the ability to cheap upgrade their units?

Only reason I'm eyeballing them now is because I see all the raves online about them.

 

[Victoria]

Only reason I'm eyeballing them now is because I see all the raves online about them.

Read the levy guide in my signature, levying is not that expensive, especially considering hungary’s Ability with upgrades.
Also not sure what difficulty you are playing, deity is hit and miss and the enemy will store envoys on purpose to take away your levy. You push culture more to get ahead on envoys

 

[tetley]

I don't see your signature on a mobile device. I've got Emperor under control, dabbling in Immortal. Might be ready foe Deity, but I don't want to rage quit.

 

[Lily_Lancer]

The reason I haven't played Hungary already is because I don't see how their Suze ability is that useful, anyway? If you're playing at Deity, you are behind technologically;

In Civ6 there's really not enough bonus on AI as well as not enough focus on making better AIs. Usually on Deity only 1~2 Ais happen to be better than human player in science or culture. (Since others are focusing on useless issues such as building a Holy Site/ Encampment/Industrial Zone/ Commercial Hub/Entertainment Complex in every city, with ZERO Campus)

CS adopt the average science and culture so you shall be ahead of them, especially if you're researching on a specific tech line for timing.