[GS] Need Help on Hungary

[tetley]

Just got my win on Immortal using Hungary. Funnily, I got a Religious Victory.

Yeah, that Foreign Ministry is when you make your big move. I levied some troops once prior to that just to pillage and raise some trouble. But once the Foreign Ministry is up, you can levy everybody; and once everybody's levied, that's an extra 2 envoys on every CS you have--which basically locks you in as Suze for the rest of the game. I never once took advantage of the -75% upgrade levied troops. The CS was on par or ahead of me on tech. I did, however, play Twilight Valor dark age policy card a lot, since I levied a lot more melee units than I normally would have. That's Twilight Valor bonus + Foreign Ministry bonus + Hungary bonus. That's a lot of combat bonus!

I thought Apadana wonder would be really important--but with only 6 CS in the game, it really wasn't. It probably would have been more important if there were more than 10 CS in the game. Kilwa, however, was crucial. That's what put me in the science lead. I'm not used to building Kilwa but not Apadana, but that's Hungary.

I can see why Hungary is considered a Domination Victory civ, but because my levied units did not have any siege, that meant I pillaged a lot--and by pillage, I mean faith. So it was a domination-inspired religious victory.

Hungary is a pretty strong civ, but it all rides on the AI not running away with it before you get the Foreign Ministry. Researching the Divine Right civic is pretty high priority, since that is what unlocks Foreign Ministry.

 

[tetley]

A few other notes on Hungary, now that I've slept on it:

- Getting a religion as Hungary isn't too bad. You should probably use the river bonus on a Holy site. I did.

- Hard build the Black Armys, siege, and whatever archers you need to survive early. Don't forget that your levies will trigger the eurekas for Metal Casting (3 crossbowmen) and Gunpowder(3 musketmen). And Machinery, but you will not benefit from Foreign Ministry if you levy archers that early.

- Don't forget that completing the Foreign Ministry and the tier-1 government building (e.g. Warlord's Throne) will let you switch up your policy cards for free that turn. Also, when you pillage Theater districts, that will change the turn count on your civics research. In fact, if you have the chance to pillage some culture before Foreign Ministry, that can help get you to the all-important Divine Right civic sooner.

- Build your bank account just before you complete the Foreign Ministry.

- That "+1 gold for each envoy you have" Diplomatic policy card was nice. More envoys = more gold = more levies = more envoys...

- If the CS only has 1 or 2 units to levy, that is for the best. Cheap envoys!

- My survival army from early in the game was completely irrelevant, once the Foreign Ministry came out. They couldn't keep up; and even upgraded they didn't have the combat strength.

- I threw all my diplomatic favor into "Military units, +100% production" World Congress resolution.

 

[legalizefreedom]

Great info and attention to detail, tetley!

Generally speaking of levies, how can you tell which CS you have previously levied or not?

 

[tetley]

Do you mean this?

Hover your mouse over the levied troop, and you will get this.

 

[Victoria]

If the CS only has 1 or 2 units to levy, that is for the best.

And if you have all envoys of a CS die before 30 turns, can you levy more?
I believe the answer is yes

 

[Pietato]

Damn, your envoys die out? Harsh mod, bro.

 

[Victoria]

Damn, your envoys die out? Harsh mod, bro.

Whoops, I means levied troops

 

[Fluphen Azine]

Ok, tired of this now. No surprise you were banned.

Banned??
Reinstated?

 

[legalizefreedom]

Do you mean this?

View attachment 537742

Hover your mouse over the levied troop, and you will get this.

Right. I mean after they are no longer levied.

During the levy it's pretty obvious since they take on your color and show up in your turn queue. But I'm assuming the 2 envoy bonus is only good once. When you are looking for the next one to levy how do you tell? Or maybe the bonus is good unlimited times...

 

[leandrombraz]

About the 50% production bonus:

• Hungary has a Geothermal Fissure bias and a river bias. Rivers usually (or always, I'm not sure) run from mountains, so it isn't hard to find some good spot for a campus where you can use the production boost. On coastal cities, you might also get a good spot near a reef;
• Same for Holy sites near mountains. If you get a desert with a river, Desert folklore can be used to get some pretty decent holy sites and still apply the discount;
• Industrial zones get adjacency from dams and aqueducts, that's one that is easy to build next to a river and still get some good adjacency. Ideally you won't use a tile across a river for the dam/aqueduct but if the layout requires, why not?
• Government Plaza can also benefit from it. You "waste" a tile adjacent to the city center but that's barely an issue. It isn't always worth trying to surround your government plaza with districts anyway, and that improve the adjacency for other district built across the river;
• Theater square depend on the wonders you gonna build, it isn't hard to get one near a river;

Unless you're playing on a really bad map, you will find opportunities to use the discount on more than just commercial hubs and entertainment complex.


The Raven King ability is above all fun to use. I see Hungary as a Venice like Civ, designed to encourage you to play in a different way, using a mercenary army instead of your own. Considering the Huszár, Hungary seems more like a Civ designed to be aggressive in peace than to go for domination. Raven King is an ability that is useful to liberate city states and complete emergencies, giving you an army that is spread all over the map and can reach your target without the need to move your army through long distances. Wherever a fight shows up, you're there. I would play Domination as Hungary more like a challenge, using only levy units and Hungary's UUs. As for the cost, according to Victoria's guide:

• It costs the base production value of the units levied in gold. A warrior costs 40 production so if a CS has 3 warriors to Levy, it will cost 120 gold to do so.

I don't see that as expensive, mostly if you get to levy warriors then upgrade to swordsman. Granted, that's less likely in higher difficulties. You also get envoys and era points. The era points not so much, unless you need it, but the envoys are totally worth the cost, mostly after you build the Foreign Ministry.

 

[tetley]

I had an awful lot of envoys, so I assumed it's unlimited. The next thing I wanted to investigate was whether the CS adds 2 hexes to their city radius every time.

 

[Victoria]

It is unlimited and it is cheap unless they have10+ units in which case you just hired a swarm. The upgrade is a great thing but yes, throw the units into combat, get em killed and levy again for extra envoys.
IDC that much about the envoys personally but the troops are great.
Good science adjacency is not the forte of this country but then the Khmer or India also suffer from this. When you can get those early warriors into swords you are in an awesome situation because of the +2 MP. Because they are +5 as well you can have basically 4MP legions, heaven forbid having twilight as well as Oligarchy. That makes them better than knights apart from ZOC.
Because it can be great it tends to get overrated but it certainly is not bottom of any list unless you play online deity grassland starts. That why Aztecs are used instead.

 

[leandrombraz]

I had an awful lot of envoys, so I assumed it's unlimited. The next thing I wanted to investigate was whether the CS adds 2 hexes to their city radius every time.

It's unlimited. The only thing stopping you from spamming envoys is the 30 turns that it takes to end the levy period and how much gold you have. The fact that you can only levy when you're already suzerain also limit your ability to exploit it. If you lose a CS, you need to get it back before you can buy another 2 envoys.

 

[Victoria]

30 turns t

I seem to remember in tests, as soon as you have no more troops, you can levy more. Probably the reason you cannot destroy them. I am pretty sure that’s why I wrote the line subtly in the guide, not 30 turns but instead while you are levying. Read the first bullet point and ask yourself why I did not simply put 30 turns in there.

 

[Bangau]

Was looking for something different and tried this game as @Lily_Lancer originally asked for. Had never played online speed before and made a bunch of errors because of it, still got Hungary to use its strength a little. I can see why Lily questions the strength of Hungary compared to other civs in this specific setting though. Some points of interest (just based on this one game):
- The AI is 'best' in the early game because of its head-start and yield bonuses. In online speed, with all building times halved (or more?) I feel like they manage to use this advantage better and stay ahead a bit longer. (Could just be my inexperience with online though...) One of Hungary's strengths is expansion by early conquest, best case scenario you levy one or two city states and capture the first opponent, levy one or two more and capture the second, and from that point on you have surpassed the AI. If it is harder to successfully capture a first opponent in the early game, the whole steamrolling game gets harder.
- Levied units are levied for half the time compared to standard speed (!). That is a big disadvantage, since they don't move twice as fast. Levied units will have to move a turn or five (maybe even ten) to the target and in online speed, by that time a large part of your levy time has passed already and you have to have build up enough money to levy again. (Especially before the tier2 government building)
- This particular map was quite challenging: the Mongols to the south somehow played quite well and successfully captured all of the Ottoman empire. Rarely see such dedication with the AI. Lautaro defended with crossbowmen as soon as he good, killing many a levied unit in the process. Because of their envoy bonus I actually had a contender for city stated in Greece. Also: the land was quite hard as well: almost no mountains, very few hills, a lot of rainforest and less woods (though enough I think). Also: two major floods in the first 30 turns or so killed of about 4 pop. Did give nice yields though.
- At a certain point I got 10+ envoy in two city states, enough to stop the AI from trying to break my suzerainty. The succeeded earlier though, since the last (or the one before?) patch the AI is really sneaky with their envoys. I levied one CS's troops after I checked that Lautaro had not even met them and the Ottomans and Mongols had already invested their envoy into another city state. My levied troops walked over to Lautaro... levy broken... suzerainty lost... Apparently he had all his envoys saved up (counted it, he could have had no more than 4) and when he 'met' them (because I attacked them with the CS units I think) used them to break my levy and suzerainty. Pro move there. Have seen the AI do similar things recently, almost felt like they cheated this time, but was probably just bad luck that they hadn't met any CS and saved up all their envoys because of it.

Might try online speed again some time. Felt a bit awkward this time though: everything produces so fast. (I think with the right cards in the AI could produce units in good cities 1 p/t)

 

[tetley]

This has got me to thinking: what if you held envoys in your pocket, go to war with a major civ--and THEN Suze steal from them? Assuming you don't lose their CS quest (and it was attainable). Wouldn't that net you 2 era points over just stealing the CS first, and then DoW?

 

[leandrombraz]

I seem to remember in tests, as soon as you have no more troops, you can levy more. Probably the reason you cannot destroy them. I am pretty sure that’s why I wrote the line subtly in the guide, not 30 turns but instead while you are levying. Read the first bullet point and ask yourself why I did not simply put 30 turns in there.

Yes, you're right. IIRC when you hover the levy button, it says you can't levy more because you already have levy units from that CS, so the 30 turns isn't a hard limit, the actual limit is if you have levy units from that CS.

 

[legalizefreedom]

Wow that's a little crazy. I would not have guessed it was unlimited. Guaranteed Suz for every CS end game.

And not only that, but if you are at war, cannon fodder quickens your ability to get more envoys.

Thanks for the info!

 

[Casualty of war]

When I play Hungary, I send my Levied troops on missions they don't survive, deployed to destruction. The Levying envoy is just too useful and the fewer troops the City-State has, the cheaper it is to Levy. It's pretty easy to get up to 6 envoys in the Scientific and Cultural City States in a phenomenally short amount of time, and when your Universities and Museums are getting that bonus you blow past the AI.

It's a little bit of a mental adjustment to go from conserving your troops to charging them into the Valley of Death, but it works great with Hungary. With Hungary you can turn Gold into Inspirations and Eurekas too; I never get Mercenaries as fast as when I play Hungary but Levying gets you to 8 units in a blink.

 

[Lily_Lancer]

A few other notes on Hungary, now that I've slept on it:

- Getting a religion as Hungary isn't too bad. You should probably use the river bonus on a Holy site. I did.

- Hard build the Black Armys, siege, and whatever archers you need to survive early. Don't forget that your levies will trigger the eurekas for Metal Casting (3 crossbowmen) and Gunpowder(3 musketmen). And Machinery, but you will not benefit from Foreign Ministry if you levy archers that early.

- Don't forget that completing the Foreign Ministry and the tier-1 government building (e.g. Warlord's Throne) will let you switch up your policy cards for free that turn. Also, when you pillage Theater districts, that will change the turn count on your civics research. In fact, if you have the chance to pillage some culture before Foreign Ministry, that can help get you to the all-important Divine Right civic sooner.

- Build your bank account just before you complete the Foreign Ministry.

- That "+1 gold for each envoy you have" Diplomatic policy card was nice. More envoys = more gold = more levies = more envoys...

- If the CS only has 1 or 2 units to levy, that is for the best. Cheap envoys!

- My survival army from early in the game was completely irrelevant, once the Foreign Ministry came out. They couldn't keep up; and even upgraded they didn't have the combat strength.

- I threw all my diplomatic favor into "Military units, +100% production" World Congress resolution.

Well, can you summarize your suggestions based on the example of the map posted on #1?

Was looking for something different and tried this game as @Lily_Lancer originally asked for. Had never played online speed before and made a bunch of errors because of it, still got Hungary to use its strength a little. I can see why Lily questions the strength of Hungary compared to other civs in this specific setting though. Some points of interest (just based on this one game):
- The AI is 'best' in the early game because of its head-start and yield bonuses. In online speed, with all building times halved (or more?) I feel like they manage to use this advantage better and stay ahead a bit longer. (Could just be my inexperience with online though...) One of Hungary's strengths is expansion by early conquest, best case scenario you levy one or two city states and capture the first opponent, levy one or two more and capture the second, and from that point on you have surpassed the AI. If it is harder to successfully capture a first opponent in the early game, the whole steamrolling game gets harder.
- Levied units are levied for half the time compared to standard speed (!). That is a big disadvantage, since they don't move twice as fast. Levied units will have to move a turn or five (maybe even ten) to the target and in online speed, by that time a large part of your levy time has passed already and you have to have build up enough money to levy again. (Especially before the tier2 government building)
- This particular map was quite challenging: the Mongols to the south somehow played quite well and successfully captured all of the Ottoman empire. Rarely see such dedication with the AI. Lautaro defended with crossbowmen as soon as he good, killing many a levied unit in the process. Because of their envoy bonus I actually had a contender for city stated in Greece. Also: the land was quite hard as well: almost no mountains, very few hills, a lot of rainforest and less woods (though enough I think). Also: two major floods in the first 30 turns or so killed of about 4 pop. Did give nice yields though.
- At a certain point I got 10+ envoy in two city states, enough to stop the AI from trying to break my suzerainty. The succeeded earlier though, since the last (or the one before?) patch the AI is really sneaky with their envoys. I levied one CS's troops after I checked that Lautaro had not even met them and the Ottomans and Mongols had already invested their envoy into another city state. My levied troops walked over to Lautaro... levy broken... suzerainty lost... Apparently he had all his envoys saved up (counted it, he could have had no more than 4) and when he 'met' them (because I attacked them with the CS units I think) used them to break my levy and suzerainty. Pro move there. Have seen the AI do similar things recently, almost felt like they cheated this time, but was probably just bad luck that they hadn't met any CS and saved up all their envoys because of it.

Might try online speed again some time. Felt a bit awkward this time though: everything produces so fast. (I think with the right cards in the AI could produce units in good cities 1 p/t)

Glad someone tries an actual game on the map. I really wish to highlight yours.

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How soon do you think you'll win(or reach a critical point, like bomber) though? In my game I have bombers on T103, a very late time(If you play Trajan or Pericles or Harold or some other T1 Civs it is easy to make it ~T80), I purchased 3 of them instantly.