New and Changed Unit Stats

[klokwerk]

These units probably have a bonus against siege weapons too, we just don't know against which ones.

 

[Thedrin]

Watiggi:
Good point. What it will do then is give easy xp to the Spearmen then - assuming they're not being protected. If they are being protected, then in all likelyhood they're in a city, in which case it'll be seige next turn with a whole lot of losses/heavily damaged defenders (allbeit mounted units).

I dunno, I'll have to play it in order to see how it pans out. But I can see it being big stack requiring big stacks to destroy it yet again, except this time, it'll put a strong focus on the anti mounted units (which is needed). It'll certainly be interesting.

Ok, games will still revolve around who has the largest amount of units engaged in a war but the important point, I think, is that siege units usefullness in conquering cities will be reduced dramatically by the new changes.

 

[bluedevil99]

Wow. I was actually looking forward to the improvements in the wartime AI, but the massive nerf of siege units is going way overboard. If I'm reading this right, you're going to need twice as many catapults to bombard cities, and they're all going to be half as effective as attackers, AND easy XP fodder for anyone who bothers to build horse archers. Greeeeat. It's looking like they should have titled this expansion "Civ IV: Don't Bother With the Sword".

 

[Thedrin]

BlueDevil:
AND easy XP fodder for anyone who bothers to build horse archers.

If you break your stack up into 3 smaller stacks then your opponent will need 3 times as many horse archers to do an equal amount of damage to your catapults.

 

[Bushface]

Back to air combat. A Fighter has strength 12, and is certain to intercept a Bomber, which has strength 16. Now if - I say again, if - air combat is resolved in the same way as land combat in v2.08, then the fighter has only a 21.6% chance of victory and only 0.6% chance of being undamaged, whereas the Bomber has a 78.4% victory chance and 6.1% chance of winning without damage, in which case it ought to be able to complete its mission even though interception has occurred. So although a Fighter will continue to intercept while it can, it must expect to take damage, cumulatively, and will eventually get killed. This would exactly parallel land, or sea, combat, in which any defender kept fighting unless (a) attacks ceased, (b) another defender took over, or (c) it died.
This is quite different from v2.08, in which any interception meant damage to the Bomber and failure of the mission, whilst defending Fighters never took damage but could make only one interception.
What system will BtS use, I wonder ?

 

[Roland Johansen]

Back to air combat. A Fighter has strength 12, and is certain to intercept a Bomber, which has strength 16. Now if - I say again, if - air combat is resolved in the same way as land combat in v2.08, then the fighter has only a 21.6% chance of victory and only 0.6% chance of being undamaged, whereas the Bomber has a 78.4% victory chance and 6.1% chance of winning without damage, in which case it ought to be able to complete its mission even though interception has occurred. So although a Fighter will continue to intercept while it can, it must expect to take damage, cumulatively, and will eventually get killed. This would exactly parallel land, or sea, combat, in which any defender kept fighting unless (a) attacks ceased, (b) another defender took over, or (c) it died.
This is quite different from v2.08, in which any interception meant damage to the Bomber and failure of the mission, whilst defending Fighters never took damage but could make only one interception.
What system will BtS use, I wonder ?

In Warlords 2.08, air combat victory was completely determined by the interception percentage and had nothing to do with the unit strength. Also, an attacking fighter had a chance to intercept a defending fighter (although the chance was pretty low). We don't know yet how the victor of air combat in BTS is determined but I don't expect bombers to regularly win air combat vs fighters. So if bombers still have a higher unit strength than fighters in BTS, then I don't expect that air combat is determined by unit strength.

 

[GIR]

If you break your stack up into 3 smaller stacks then your opponent will need 3 times as many horse archers to do an equal amount of damage to your catapults.

That's a very good point!
I'm really excited.
With that new system it would make sense to have more (smaller) stacks and not just one mega SOD running around like godzilla on crack!

 

[Thedrin]

To be fair the same thing could have been said about using siege units on stacks in Vanilla - before other siege units became immune to collateral. However siege units are so effective for city conquests and flank attack looks like it will be so effective at damaging siege units that multiple smaller stacks may become the norm. It's too difficult to predict.

 

[GIR]

Well its specific Mounted against specific siege units
so
HA v. Cataput+Trebuchet
Cavalry v. Cannon

So far no bonus for Knights, War Elephants, Chariots, Curassiers

like klokwerk said, probably they have flank attack as well.
the list on the first side isn't complete. it's just all i saw in the 4 videos.

 

[kniteowl]

Flank Attack is the collateral Damage dealt to Siege units if a unit with a Flanking Promotion survives when attacking.(I assume)

Does that mean we're more likely to see Siege units being promoted down the drill line to decrease Flanking attack collateral damage???

Hey GIR are you also making a list change for Buildings as well?

 

[Martinus]

And people worried Protective is a weak trait - the nerf to siege weapons is the boost to Protective, clearly.

 

[Martinus]

I'm wondering about that Blockade option... it looks like it says that it stops ALL international trade... is that right? Because if that's the case, we're essentially back to square one on the usefulness of navies. Why would I want to stop all international trade when that will probably include trade routes of my own cities?? This is especially true when one considers that it would be nonsensical to build your own separate routes out to other continents...

What are you talking about? It only blockades the trade on this tile. This means if you blockade all sea tiles around the enemy city, you will blockade only the trade going through this city. Only if this city is the only port on the continent (of all players), you would blockade the international trade of all players with this continent.

Personally, I think the blockade effect is too weak, if anything. It should allow you to blockade at least adjacent tiles in addition to the one on which the ship is located. I hope either some ships are better at blockading and allow that or there is a promotion to allow for a better blockading range.

 

[Watiggi]

Ok, games will still revolve around who has the largest amount of units engaged in a war but the important point, I think, is that siege units usefullness in conquering cities will be reduced dramatically by the new changes.

And Horse Archers use(fullness) will be increased accordingly. I hope the Chariot doesn't have this ability. It'll make it too multi-role otherwise.

 

[bonafide11]

And people worried Protective is a weak trait - the nerf to siege weapons is the boost to Protective, clearly.

I really don't think anyone can claim Protective is still a weak trait in BTS... Imperialist is the one we're working on now

 

[Thedrin]

Martinus:
What are you talking about? It only blockades the trade on this tile. This means if you blockade all sea tiles around the enemy city, you will blockade only the trade going through this city. Only if this city is the only port on the continent (of all players), you would blockade the international trade of all players with this continent.

Personally, I think the blockade effect is too weak, if anything. It should allow you to blockade at least adjacent tiles in addition to the one on which the ship is located. I hope either some ships are better at blockading and allow that or there is a promotion to allow for a better blockading range.

He's talking about officially undisclosed changes. In the context of Vanilla and Warlords only his statement must seem bizarre.

 

[klokwerk]

What are you talking about? It only blockades the trade on this tile. This means if you blockade all sea tiles around the enemy city, you will blockade only the trade going through this city. Only if this city is the only port on the continent (of all players), you would blockade the international trade of all players with this continent.

Personally, I think the blockade effect is too weak, if anything. It should allow you to blockade at least adjacent tiles in addition to the one on which the ship is located. I hope either some ships are better at blockading and allow that or there is a promotion to allow for a better blockading range.

You only have to blockade a few tiles to stop all the trade routes. The deleted 'unofficial' post explained the way it worked. You don't have to blockade thousands of tiles, don't worry about it.

And I'm pretty sure it won't stop YOUR trade routes, it would make no sense.

 

[klokwerk]

And people worried Protective is a weak trait - the nerf to siege weapons is the boost to Protective, clearly.

The other massive upgrade to Protective is that the Drill Promotions Line is now available to gunpower units

The last bonus is castles now give spy points.

So protective really got a major boost in BtS.

 

[Rule Brittania]

I could probebly sift through the many screenshots or threads to find this out but it would take too long, but is there no longer a cap of 3 spys at one time in BTS like there was in Vanilla?

 

[snipperrabbit!!]

I think you have a starting number of spies (2? or 3?) and every time you GP build Scotland Yard you gain 3 more.

 

[GIR]

Flank Attack is the collateral Damage dealt to Siege units if a unit with a Flanking Promotion survives when attacking.(I assume)

Does that mean we're more likely to see Siege units being promoted down the drill line to decrease Flanking attack collateral damage???

Good point. I don't know if the Drill Promotion protects the Siege Units from the Flanking Attack damage. But maybe...

Hey GIR are you also making a list change for Buildings as well?

I made the screenshots...
But after I saw how much work it was to make this thread (first 3 posts) I stopped

Sorry, no BtS changed Building thread
But you can see the changed building stats in this thread posted by fitchn: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=228210&page=8