New Civics Screen

[Lib.Spi't]

could you not just make 1 and a half new units.

Poop Peasant (Unit_Colonist)
Free Peasant (Free_Peasant) These coming in after serfs in a later tech/civic combo?

 

[Nightinggale]

could you not just make 1 and a half new units.

How do you make half units? Just filling out half the XML info doesn't really work.

Poop Peasant (Unit_Colonist)

What is a poop peasant? I imagine poop sailors would be sailors stationed at the poop deck, but the majority of medieval peasants didn't permission to board ships.

 

[Lib.Spi't]

because the Unit colonist is already there you only have to 'make' half of it by changing the stats and in game name.

No man is an island, therefore we may all have to one day set off standing atop our metaphorical poop decks, metaphorically sailing into the unknown.... while pooping.

 

[Kailric]

In the recent push I have added Yield_Bells to be used as an Upkeep cost for Civics. There is code to make it somewhat general Yields, except for Cargo Yields. I would think that Cargo Yields would need to be subtracted from your Storehouses, but then you have issues of like what city to take it from and such. So, I have left off cargo yields at the moment. Also, to add other none cargo yields I will have to add more generic code to the DLL and you would have to edit python files like I did with Yield_Bells, as the code is pretty generic, this is planned.

I have changed the name of Yield_Bells from Fealty to Administration. Workers in your Townhalls and such will now produce Administration and attempt to run your Empire.

Also, to help keep track of your Total Admin Production - Admin Upkeep I have added a few extra visual helps. If you have Admin Cost you will see an Admin Icon (Crown) on the Turn/Date bar with the difference total. If this is red you know you need to make adjustments. So, if the Pope censures you and you lose Admin Production this could very well go Red and you will not be a happy camper (is anyone really ever a happy camper?). Also, there will always be info in the Civics Screen.

Also, inside Cities Screens, the Admin Production Value (previously Fealty Value) will go Red if you have an Upkeep deficit, and mouse hover help text will give you a warning.

I plan to add a Gold Cost to Upkeep as well, this is already in place but there are no Visual aids to help you manage it all. So, I will have to work on adding that for the next push.

Edit: the Visual aid layout is still up for suggestions so any input will be helpful. I added it to the Time/Turn bar for simplicity at the moment, however, if we start adding Gold and other costs like Crosses and such we may need a different area to keep track of Upkeep Costs.

 

[Nightinggale]

I have changed the name of Yield_Bells from Fealty to Administration.

Not according to the git log

Also when you modify XML files, could you please run indentXML.pl before commiting? You somehow changed the indent on a lot of lines even though you didn't change them. Git now reports that those lines are changed even though only the indent changed. That's actually the main reason for writing that script in the first place.

 

[Kailric]

Not according to the git log

Correct

Also when you modify XML files, could you please run indentXML.pl before commiting? You somehow changed the indent on a lot of lines even though you didn't change them. Git now reports that those lines are changed even though only the indent changed. That's actually the main reason for writing that script in the first place.

K, I'll attempt to do this each time I commit.

 

[Lib.Spi't]

This sounds cool!

For a display system, maybe we could add it to a box in the top left corner, where in civIV you have the tax percentages, cash science culture etc.

So very minimal but similar.
[Yield Icon]amount produced/amount required
[Yield Icon]amount produced/amount required
[Yield Icon]amount produced/amount required

 

[Kailric]

Yeah, I was thinking along those lines. This opens up neat options where Religious civics could require Crosses, etc. It would be neat if there was a Civic category for each none cargo yield but that would be tough to make work out.

 

[Lib.Spi't]

Well What do we have to work with?

Gold (Used for all. Highest for Economy Civics)
Admin (Legal Govenment Civics)
Crosses (Religious Civics)
Education
Candles
Culture
Fealty (Government Civics)
Immigration

That is enough concepts for 1 each. I know some of them are combo yields, and some of them are used for other things, but it could be that some civics boost other areas at the cost of science, culture, immigration, education, etc.

I know some of the civics already do these kinds of things anyway, with the -% effects. So the principle is already in play.

 

[orlanth]

Hmm I like your ideas about enabling flexible Civic Upkeep costs to use a variety of Yields

That's a lot of yields Lib listed, they could each be interesting for this in their own way, but maybe ideally you could just make this a general feature where you enter any upkeep Yield in XML to avoid having to code multiple hardcoded systems for every possible abstract Yield you might want to use.

Do the Bells/Crosses in upkeep get consumed from each city directly or subtracted from the player's empire-wide pool? In 2071 I had several Techs where you consumed one of the abstract Yields like Bells or Crosses to complete the research which I thought was a cool feature already made possible by Inventor modcomp. I hope the new system with upkeeps would still maintain this possibility of research consuming abstract yields in cities, I'd think that it would

How will the upkeeps work, can you select from having a flat cost per turn, or a cost per city per turn, or also have an option for civics to have city costs weighted by distance from the Capitol? Or maybe even a separate tag that could impose a slight cost per unit? That's one of the core things going all the way back to Civ 1, is Civics that give costs to maintaining huge and sprawling empires to offset the big production advantages. (Especially if we start adding bonuses from having lots of cities connected, there's some risk of once you start getting big enough it's self reinforcing and gets way too easy, so its good to see some possibility of a balancing mechanism with costs that scale up as you get too far ahead).

Also you could maybe let it allow positive or negative values for upkeep. That way it could even be possible to mod things like a Civic that had high Gold upkeep, but generated you some Bells, and vice versa.

 

[Nightinggale]

That's a lot of yields Lib listed, they could each be interesting for this in their own way, but maybe ideally you could just make this a general feature where you enter any upkeep Yield in XML to avoid having to code multiple hardcoded systems for every possible abstract Yield you might want to use.

That's what I'm thinking. Just write some generic DLL code and let the actual setup depend on XML settings.

We could have some "per citizen" upkeep. Each city calculates upkeep due to the number of citizens and the amount of yields are reduced from the warehouse. If there aren't enough, then it will have negative impact on administration level or something. Maybe the current domestic marked code could be modded into handling this, allowing upkeep to be paid on a plotgroup base rather than individual city base. Or we could use the same approach and use the player's list of cities, effectively pretending that they are all in one plotgroup.

 

[Kailric]

Have to think of the Civics Options Categories themselves as well...

Administration->Admin
Piety->Crosses
Commerce->Gold
Legal->
Labor->

That leaves Legal and Labor without an obvious Yield. We talked about introducing a Yield_Law, if we did that, that would cover Legal. Then just Labor is left, which it makes sense that Labor cost Gold since Gold supports a Labor System.

Actually, we should not limit ourselves to CivicOptions, as the Legal option Ecclesiastical and Admin option Theocracy should take Crosses as well, so we basically can mix and match and have a cool system with the Yields we already have.

As mentioned this is going to lead to some interesting situations that could simulate real life. Like, death from Wars and too many Soldiers compared to Officials needed to run your empire could leave you short on Civic Yields, which could cause your Government to collapse into Anarchy. Also if your people revolt refusing to work or your empire is struck by an awful plague could lead to Anarchy as well.

Also, how to handle Cargo Yields, perhaps your Capital city could be allowed to have extra Storage like a Capital Warehouse, and all the Civic Cargo Yields are taken from their and you have to make sure you keep that warehouse full. This could add some strategic planning fun as well.

 

[Kailric]

That's a lot of yields Lib listed, they could each be interesting for this in their own way, but maybe ideally you could just make this a general feature where you enter any upkeep Yield in XML to avoid having to code multiple hardcoded systems for every possible abstract Yield you might want to use.

I am working on making all None Cargo Yields generic as I speak. We'll have to device a system for the Cargo Yields if we wanted to use those.

Do the Bells/Crosses in upkeep get consumed from each city directly or subtracted from the player's empire-wide pool?

The way the code is now for Civic Upkeep, nothing gets consumed. You are just required to be Producing a fixed amount Yields per Turn. It simply checks the Player for getYieldRate(YIELD_BELLS) - getUpkeepCount(YIELD_BELLS) to see if there is a deficit. This is a very simple system for the moment, which needs to be well tested in game before we make it more complicated.

In 2071 I had several Techs where you consumed one of the abstract Yields like Bells or Crosses to complete the research which I thought was a cool feature already made possible by Inventor modcomp. I hope the new system with upkeeps would still maintain this possibility of research consuming abstract yields in cities, I'd think that it would

As far as I know this is still in the game.

How will the upkeeps work, can you select from having a flat cost per turn, or a cost per city per turn, or also have an option for civics to have city costs weighted by distance from the Capitol?

As mentioned above, any mentioned options are outside my plans at the moment but they would be cool to introduce more options at some point.

 

[Nightinggale]

Come to think of this, adding civic upkeep could open up for a new type of civics. A type of civic, which you can turn on and off independently from everything else and possibly without anarchy. Such civics can then have some sort of bonus as well as an upkeep. Something like -0.5 lumber/citizen and then +10% food production... or whatever we come up with. It could also be something like a positive and a negative modifier, such as +10% outdoor yield production and -10% indoor yield production.

Given how flexible civics are going to be, the possibilities for such civics seems to be endless.

 

[Kailric]

Come to think of this, adding civic upkeep could open up for a new type of civics. A type of civic, which you can turn on and off independently from everything else and possibly without anarchy. Such civics can then have some sort of bonus as well as an upkeep. Something like -0.5 lumber/citizen and then +10% food production... or whatever we come up with. It could also be something like a positive and a negative modifier, such as +10% outdoor yield production and -10% indoor yield production.

Given how flexible civics are going to be, the possibilities for such civics seems to be endless.

Yes, there is going to be plenty of setups to make for some interesting Player Choices.

Also, how to handle Cargo Yields, perhaps your Capital city could be allowed to have extra Storage like a Capital Warehouse, and all the Civic Cargo Yields are taken from their and you have to make sure you keep that warehouse full. This could add some strategic planning fun as well.

Yeah, good idea Kai, and if your Capital gets taken out just think of the havoc this could cause across your Empire

 

[Lib.Spi't]

the capital storage would be cool, especially if we loop the consideration into the various transport automations, so they automatically know to take the needed stuff there.

 

[Kailric]

Whats a good icon for Upkeep or Maintenance?

 

[Lib.Spi't]

A Crown (like King's authority) A Scroll, A Banner, ooh A Wax Seal, A Quill?

 

[Kailric]

A Crown (like King's authority) A Scroll, A Banner, ooh A Wax Seal, A Quill?

Guess again... nope. The answer is, "the ability to swim." Better luck next time.

I left off any descriptive icons or text for the moment and just created an area in the top left corner of the screen as you suggested similar to Civ4 that shows the Upkeep Icons Cost/Produced. Cost will turn red if there is a deficit. I also shrunk the top adviser Icons down a bit to make more room. They where like 3 times as big as the ones in Civ4.

I am going to fill in the Civic Upkeeps with something that seems appropriate and see how it goes.

 

[Lib.Spi't]

That all sounds most intrigueing

Labour could be immigration (Workforce)
Legal could be culture (authority/control)