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New DLC: Polynesia

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by Willowmound, Feb 28, 2011.

  1. Solo4114

    Solo4114 Prince

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    Ah, the inevitable debate over the worthiness of including this or that "group" in a Civ game as a new civilization...

    The Polynesians were important, no question. But were they a "civilization"? I guess that depends on your definition of "civilization" -- an issue on which the Civ franchise has been increasingly less focused in recent years.


    On the one hand, I agree with "WTH?" as a response. On the other, I can't help but shrug. So many of the other civs included in these games are conglomerations of ethnic and political entities. I mean, take the English. Are the English a civ? Well....yeah, but I guess it depends heavily on where you start counting. The English are not the pre-Roman British (which is closer to the Celts), nor are they the Roman British, nor the Anglo-Saxons (who were themselves germanic tribes) who later took over, nor the Vikings (the Scandinavian/Danish northmen) who raided, built settlements, intermarried, and took over much of eastern England. Nor are they the Normans (who were yet another group of norse descent) who took over the nobility from the Anglo-Saxons, but not the population, but from whose conquest in 1066 we kind of "begin" the concept of a truly unified England (well, depending on one's view of the latter days of the kingdom of Wessex).


    So, where's "England" show up, and what makes it "England?" Is it an ethnic group? Well, clearly not in the sense of "these people have always lived here and are an homogeneous ethnic group." Ethnically, the "English" are a bizarre mix of Celts, Romans, Anglo-Saxon germanic barbarians, Vikings, and Normans (and the distinctions between those two are a bit fuzzy, too).

    Politically, England was, arguably, "unified" a few times prior to 1066, but as I said we sort of start "counting" in 1066 with William I's conquest. That said, even after William I, we have fuzzy succession throughout the ages, leading to no small amount of political unrest. And even William's claim to the throne was based on some tenuous connection to the kingdom of Wessex.



    And that's just the English! You want to get REALLY confusing, try the French! Are they the pre-Roman Gauls? The Gallo-Romans? The Franks (who were themselves -- surprise! -- germanic barbarians), the Normans (who later roll in and beat up on the Franks, eventually setting themselves up as Dukes in -- surprise! -- Normandy)? Well, arguably, it's the "Franks" who start "France" with the Merovingian and eventually the Carolingian dynasties...but how do you distinguish them from the Germans?



    and so on, and so forth....
     
  2. noncognosco

    noncognosco Warlord

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    So if the Polynesians start with everything that you get from the fishing-optics-astronomy tech branch, is there any point in researching down that line?

    Also, it is a little technical but the Polynesians really did navigate using astronomy. They did not have a method of determining longitude but they used the stars to get latitude and knew at what latitude to find each island. So they just fixed their latitude by the stars and kept going until they hit land.
     
  3. SlightlyMad

    SlightlyMad Prince

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    Sure, ocean movement is the best part of that branch, but it's not exactly "everything." If you're a civ with a major nautical focus, you're probably going to need lighthouses and harbors.
     
  4. RABicle

    RABicle Chieftain

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    To Solo:
    Yes, it will always be an interesting debate. Polynesia was never a huge unified empire, although Tui' Tonga had it's day. Essentially Polynesian culture is comparable to uh, European, Western Christian civilisation or Islamic/Arab civilization. And look that that, I just compared culture to civilisation, cos what is the difference really?

    Personally I always had a problem with 'America' being included because it's a purely modern invention. Why are they hanging out with Egypt in 3000BC? And here I am celebrating Polynesian inclusion even though Aotearoa (New Zealand) and the like was only settled in the 1400s. I am a little concerned this Polynesian civ might be a little Hawaii centric, it's be nice to see the full city list. That's what I really want to see.

    At the end of the day we should just stop treating Civ as a history simulator, it's not. It's a game that champions all the diversity and uniqueness of humanity, the way we look, the way we build and the way we fight.

    True it is. What will always be remarkable about their exploration though is that they manged to settle such remote islands as Easter Island and Hawaii? I mean, sailing out form Spain it's pretty easy to hit America at some point but sailing from French Polynesia how the hell would you find Easter Island without knowing it was there? Did they just send out hundreds and hundreds of exploration crews, most never to return? Or did they somehow know, some romantic spiritual affinity with the sea? This is actually where the bird and ocean current theories fit in.

    It's a fascinating culture and history and I'm so glad it has received official treatment.
     
  5. janboruta

    janboruta Artistriarch

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    I think the Polynesians will be a fresh and unique new Civ, though my first reaction was also like "WTH". I hope their seafaring UA will be worth the time and the 3 euro (which isn't much, but for that price I'd like at least 2 civs...). Besides, why aren't they the missing Dutch or the Portuguese, the Vikings, the Koreans?

    And Armenia, Celts and Poland aren't fail civs. Historically they had great and significant countries (Armenia and Celts in the classical age, Poland - XV-XVIth century). If there's Polynesia, Siam and Songhai, why not Armenia, Celts, Netherlands, Korea...?

    It's only a matter of taste, after all. When there are mods with animated leader scenes with native languages (I think it isn't that far away from us), then everything will be possible.
     
  6. lietkynes

    lietkynes Hello sword !

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    The mighty civilization of Polynesia
    :crazyeye:
     
  7. Landiron

    Landiron Chieftain

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    Months after release and the game still isn't patched to a enjoyable state, instead we get another DLC.

    Now I'm really pissed off.
     
  8. The Mad Russian

    The Mad Russian Armchair Dictator

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  9. KrikkitTwo

    KrikkitTwo Immortal

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    Polynesia is a Geographic filler civ...

    Like Inca, Aztec, Iroquois, Siam, Songhai
    [Korea, Maya, Zulus]


    And as such it is impressive.

    The ability to cross oceans at the beginning of the game seems near overpowered.. on certain maps. And having the statues give a combat boost is a good defensive boost.

    The "statues" I would guess are either a UB Monument/Lighthouse that boosts water production OR they are a unique improvement (like Terrace farms)


    You would still research the Astronomy branch to get Workboats, Military vessels and Water tile boosting buildings/techs (Light houses, Harbors/Seaports, Compass +1 gold to work boats)

    Indeed those would be even more important if you had an overseas empire... It would be interesting to play them and concentrate almost solely on that branch (past some of the Ancient techs for getting special resources)
     
  10. Rusty Edge

    Rusty Edge Deity

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    Well, I guess if we can have Giant Death Robots we could have Daleks, too.

    While I remain opposed to the DLC dribble marketing plan, I welcome the addition of the Polynesians to the series. Remember that they were isolated and metalless, so that severely impairs their historical importance and significance. Other civs in the game would likely suffer a similar fate under those circumstances. They deserve some credit for the techs they developed, including navigation and irrigation.
     
  11. RABicle

    RABicle Chieftain

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    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mele,_Vanuatu
    Get rid of the Moai statues, this is the true unique building :p
    (When I lived in Vanuatu, and visited Mele pretty much all the time, they didn't have this back then :()
    I also have no idea how it can be considered a polynesian outlier, the whole island can be walked around in a few hours and it is pretty much surrouned by the Melanesian Efaté.
     
  12. Silverfuturist

    Silverfuturist King

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    I had to expand the screen-shots to fill my monitor, and I saw that being 2 tiles near a Moai statue gives a combat bonus for Polynesians, and there is a new SP where each Moai gives +1 culture... I wonder if they do more than that.

    The SA means that on an archipelago map (especially a tiny islands map) the Polynesians can collect a crazy amount of goody huts. They can embark and move at the same turn and get +1 sight.
     
  13. KrikkitTwo

    KrikkitTwo Immortal

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    I think it is not "embark and move on the same turn" I think it is "embark and move over Oceans" immediately... which means they can move their initial settler+warrior out over the ocean (fun on a Terra map)
     
  14. Fabiano1979

    Fabiano1979 Chieftain

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    That shows a lot of what firaxis is thinking about civ V...

    Not only polynesia doesnt means nothing historically, but the scenary "Paradise Found" probably will be full of fantasies like the Fountain of youth.

    I was happy with the patch notes, because it shows that they can learn from the modders. But this DLC is just nonsense. I can think of at least 20 civs that deserved be in the game before polynesia...Portugal, Netherlands, Korea, Carthage, Maya, holy roman, Vikings, Zulus ...if you want to go further theres some new modern powers, like Mexico and Brazil.

    I dont know, but I really dont like the way the devs are thinking.

    If I want a fantasy game Ill play HMM or warhammer.
     
  15. bobbyboy29

    bobbyboy29 I was saying boo-urns...

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    Kaaaaa.....meeeeee....haaa....meeeeeeee.....HAAAAAAAAA!!!!!
     
  16. MkLh

    MkLh King

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    Historically this must be one of the weirdest civilizations in Civilization ever, even beating the Vikings. There isn't such thing as "Polynesian civilization". Kamehameha was a king of Hawaiji. It's thousands of kilometers from Easter Island where the Moai Statues are. The societies were completely isolated from each other and had little in common. :rolleyes:
     
  17. MadDjinn

    MadDjinn Deity

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    Actually, yeah... Terra map : Damnit! everyone is right beside me.

    See you in the new world suckers! :lol:
     
  18. LAnkou

    LAnkou Breizh A Tao

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    Sorry if i was misunderstood, it was second degree humor...
    I even post a joke thread oneday about the next expansion: Civilization V: Struggle and Survive
    The civ listed were "fail civ" with Poland, Austria-Hungary, Mayas, Carthage, Korea, Celts...

    (will edit my prededent post to add a joke smiley)
     
  19. Fabiano1979

    Fabiano1979 Chieftain

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    hahahahahh


    yep, Ill not be surprise if the next DLC bring Goku and his friends to civ.Pikachu too...
     
  20. spider1

    spider1 Prince

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    Whether or not the new civ is fun to play is the only thing that is important to me. As to it being historically significant or not, I just don't care. Any version of Civ you play is not historically accurate anyway, so why the fuss?

    Hell, I remember Civ IV games where I was playing Arabia and exporting the Jewish religion to everyone for money. :lol:
     

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