new evidence native americans should be a civ

[Ghafhi]

Because European went to africa and did the same thing. They went around the world saying everyone was lazy but them

 

[Volstag]

#1 There isn't a conspiracy to exclude American Indians.
#2 American Indians, along with hundreds of other potential candidates, are still not in the release version of the game.

Wait for an ex-pac or mods. What is so bloody difficult to understand about this?

 

[Ghafhi]

I'm not saying anuything. I'm just agreeing with the thread starter that europeans lied to the general public about the advancement of other ntions and cultures. Of course this was common in times of war they just did it to a very extreme extent. Lets just put it at this the avreage Roman though that Muslims had horns and were 8 feet tall during the crusades.

 

[Vietcong]

so ur saying ther was a great native american empire???

i think not...

i agree, ther whear large cities of a few ten thosands, 15 at the most usaly. these citys are still much smaller then those in the rest of the world.
ther may have been tribes, that controled a few hundred miles around ther centeral village, but ther whear never any empires, or civilazatios.
like others said, thers no evidence for any of that. and the books probly by some crack pot like so many alantis ones, and the chinese disscovering america.

 

[Stevo_D]

I agree.

These people have lived successfully and have been advanced and culturally important, so why not?

 

[mossmonster]

I'm not saying anuything. I'm just agreeing with the thread starter that europeans lied to the general public about the advancement of other ntions and cultures. Of course this was common in times of war they just did it to a very extreme extent. Lets just put it at this the avreage Roman though that Muslims had horns and were 8 feet tall during the crusades.

Sorry, but doesn't this just illustrate your one-sided viewpoint? They both saw each other as monsters and had real evidence to support their negative opinions of each other. It's not fair to just mention one side and ignore that atrocities were plentiful everywhere in those days, not just for the crusades but in general history as well.

If you feel your culture X was unfairly picked on historically you're probably right. Every group throughout time was no doubt mistreated, repeatedly and badly. History is not a pretty picture. The strong survive, refit, rebuild and advance onward and the weak perish (or in the modern world barely hang on and make excuses and blame everyone else). That's called the real life, and it includes winners and losers in every category.

You have a right to your opinion but this is a game forum, so why your civ should or shouldn't be included is reasonable, the politics of blame really isn't.

 

[Vietcong]

becus ther not a singel nation ever, ther are a few tribs that chold qualifie.
but a civ called "the native americans" is just stupid and unrealistic. thers No nor was ther ever a "Native american" empire.
add the tribes that deserve to be in, but dont add a native american civilazion...

it whold be like including the romano british, the all mighty canadians, or lets not forget the allmighty empire of finland

 

[Louis XXIV]

so ur saying ther was a great native american empire???

i think not...

What do you mean by empire?

 

[Antiochus]

I agree.

These people have lived successfully and have been advanced and culturally important, so why not?

Two incorrect statements there.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

"... since back in the Middle Age's it was widely accepted the Earth was flat too."

Bzzt! This is a widely accepted myth, thinks to a single supposition in a 17th century "enlightment" text that got widely quoted as fact rather than supposition. In fact, the myth is propagated in exactly the fashion the topic started mentioned, where certain textbooks just repeat each other. The earth being round was mathemathically shown in Alexandrian Egypt, if not prior. We have surviving texts. We have nautical records that show this knowledge was never lost--as if looking at the horizon wouldn't clue a couple of bright guys anyway.

Now just why did this myth get started? It was because some people had a vested interest in making the "dark ages" look less informed than they were. Like everything else human, this tendency cuts both ways. No doubt many cultures outside Western Civilization have had contributions that got discounted. No doubt some trumpting their vast contributions today are motivated more by agenda than reality.

Any theory that depends on the idea that a wide swath of people somewhere or "some when" were noticably stupid or gullible or brilliant or "nature loving" is probably motivated, at least in part, by tendencies that will find you selectively picking through the evidence.

The western enlightenment could have kicked off after 1300, but the plague arguably set it back two or three centuries. It's hard to say how "smart" people would have been in, say, 800 France, if they weren't scraping to rebuild a political order. Who knows what the Iroqois (and related tribes, like the Cherokee) would have done if exposed to the alphabet 1000 years earlier. They picked it up darn fast, once they got the idea. What if Japan had been more like England (in several different ways)?

Of course, Civ has always dodged this question because they want the "stone age tribe" you start with to have certain characteristics for game play. Otherwise, you could pick any little tribe you wanted (or even made up), and then develop it how you chose. For the game to ever satisfy everyone (outside of the very nice modding options), it will be necessary to have a lot more flexibly options of emigration and immigration, mixture of cultures, and even surviving through apparent wipeouts. But who wants to play a situation where you don't get to do anything for 100 turns while your scattered people recover from disaster?

 

[trotskylite]

But who wants to play a situation where you don't get to do anything for 100 turns while your scattered people recover from disaster?

actually i think it would be great to have a 'dark ages' dynamic in which scientific research and such is brought to a standstill and barbarians pour out of the countryside while civs struggle just trying to survive.

i wonder if this could be modded in, because i'd really love to see it.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

I was talking about something rather more drastic than a dark age. As in, your cities are squashed and all you can do is pay tribute to "barbarians" for many turns. It happened all the time in world history, and many more tribes never even got far enough to have that setback. Doesn't mean you want to spend a quarter of your game turns doing nothing but clicking enter.

 

[Vietcong]

by empire i mean united grupe under a central goverment that is expansive or something similer to this...

thay whear never united, never one ppl, not even any goverment more advanced then tribalism.

 

[Tarascan_King]

What is everybody talking about? We already have Native American Civs the Aztecs & Incas, I agree that another one would be nice, but we do have two. Or what is America just the U.S. now?

 

[smellymummy]

imagine if civ4 got an upping in real world simulation. then we could play a game with an undiscovered continent, with AI only civs, that gets earthquakes, tornadoes and hurricanes, all at the same time, with real game penalties. then we'll see just how far those civs manage to 'advance'

btw, how many times did portugal, spain, france or england get hit by a hurricane?

actually i think it would be great to have a 'dark ages' dynamic in which scientific research and such is brought to a standstill and barbarians pour out of the countryside while civs struggle just trying to survive.

i wonder if this could be modded in, because i'd really love to see it.

according to the civ4 devel blog about modding, yes it's possible!

 

[mossmonster]

btw, how many times did portugal, spain, france or england get hit by a hurricane?

So, hurricanes hitting the Gulf Coast = excuse for lack civ development N. of the Rio Grande by 1500 a.d.? Why do you feel the need to make excuses at all? Is this an arguement as to why native americans should be in civ? There are valid reasons, but sadly this isn't one of them.

Natural disasters of various kinds hit the whole world. The eruption of Mt. Vesuvius didn't exactly cause Rome to fall. There's really no need for the euro hating and bashing. You can argue that your favorite civ X should be included without puting down other people can't you?

 

[Louis XXIV]

"... since back in the Middle Age's it was widely accepted the Earth was flat too."

Bzzt! This is a widely accepted myth, thinks to a single supposition in a 17th century "enlightment" text that got widely quoted as fact rather than supposition. In fact, the myth is propagated in exactly the fashion the topic started mentioned, where certain textbooks just repeat each other. The earth being round was mathemathically shown in Alexandrian Egypt, if not prior. We have surviving texts. We have nautical records that show this knowledge was never lost--as if looking at the horizon wouldn't clue a couple of bright guys anyway.

In fact, what Colombus can be credited for was a math error. He miscalculated the distance to Asia. When he went to Portugal, they pointed out his error and said he wouldn't have enough food for such a journey (they would probably have been right). So he went to Spain who was desperate to get an edge over Portugal. And he would have died out at see if he didn't run into a brand new continent.

 

[trotskylite]

I was talking about something rather more drastic than a dark age. As in, your cities are squashed and all you can do is pay tribute to "barbarians" for many turns. It happened all the time in world history, and many more tribes never even got far enough to have that setback. Doesn't mean you want to spend a quarter of your game turns doing nothing but clicking enter.

well yeah, obviously they couldn't make it really reflect the amount of hardship that was actually experienced without making the gameplay unbearable; they'd obviously lighten the effects for gameplay purposes. but instead of that fact contributing to a further debasement of the game's realism aspect, i'd say it contributes more to advancing it as there currently isn't any sort of representation of the dark ages beyond barbarian uprisings, which hardly do the dark ages any justice.

 

[smellymummy]

So, hurricanes hitting the Gulf Coast = excuse for lack civ development N. of the Rio Grande by 1500 a.d.? Why do you feel the need to make excuses at all? Is this an arguement as to why native americans should be in civ? There are valid reasons, but sadly this isn't one of them.

Natural disasters of various kinds hit the whole world. The eruption of Mt. Vesuvius didn't exactly cause Rome to fall. There's really no need for the euro hating and bashing. You can argue that your favorite civ X should be included without puting down other people can't you?

no my post was about a simulating these kinds of events... I wasn't bashing, not hating and I wasn't making excuses for native americans. If anything, you could construe the post as an excuse for the european civs. you have to admit though, seasonal natural disasters is nothing like the odd volcano eruption.

so where in north america could people live in relative security from mother nature? the south west, arid desert (and flood plains don't give that much food!) or the north (and we know how much tundra sucks). compare these two situations to say the berbers or the scandinavians, who both flourished in one way or another. the main difference is that these people had lots of neighbors (tech whoring anyone), whereas the native americans didn't

it bothered me in civ3 that the iroquois would often be one of the top civs, dominating everything, when in fact they really didnt. what's seems great for civ4, according to firaxis anyway, is that we'll be able to add our native american civs and mod all sorts of stuff, (stats, their development, add custom events, behavior, etc infinity) so they'll actually be inferior by the time of the age of exploration, or make it a real challenge for a player to be one of those civs.

 

[gunnergoz]

This thread has become troll bait as is usual for this topic. Anybody who really cares will either mod in what they want or wait for the expansion pack. It would be nice if the kids left the adults alone for a while but I guess that's too much to ask...