new evidence native americans should be a civ

[Anubisdk2]

Being a history teacher, I will never disrespect another person's cultural heritage. But, I must draw the line with the native americans. For as long as they were left alone, many of them were unable to invent the wheel (if not all) and most did not have a written language.

But, when saying that...there are SOOO many civilizations that we could have this discussion about every culture.

 

[civspain]

actually mexico where the aztecs come from is North America.

yes you are correct

 

[civspain]

Being a history teacher, I will never disrespect another person's cultural heritage. But, I must draw the line with the native americans. For as long as they were left alone, many of them were unable to invent the wheel (if not all) and most did not have a written language.

But, when saying that...there are SOOO many civilizations that we could have this discussion about every culture.

i agree with you

 

[mossmonster]

You are the only poster I have seen suggest that an adittional american civ should replace one shipped with the game. Considering the game is currently being shipped to stores this is a completely pointless argument, and more importantly it is not what the original poster suggested.

I apologize for being pulled into this pointless argument.
-drjones

Prepare for great disappointment then as in the next many days you will see a huge number of people suggest that a certain feature/graphic/civ/tech/video/unit etc. should or shouldn't replace what was shipped with the game. Just because the game went gold doesn't mean a discussion is pointless.

Please read post #76 from the original poster:

@elderotter, @mossmonster, @Tarascan_King and others: you are right, I titled the thread rather poorly, in fact very poorly, i'm sorry...

here i go again, the new title:

"new (not new to all, though) theory (and some new evidence), that native americans, especially on the north american continent, actually were more advanced (and more numerous) before the arrival of europeans than it has been traditionally believed, and that therefore the inclusion of more native american tribes / civs / nations (pick one), especially concerning north america, as "civilizations" in the meaning of the term "civilization" as it relates to the computer game "civilization (I-IV)" into the game civilization V or its successors (may there be many) or also civilization IV's official and unofficial extensions should be revalued and reconsidered based on this new information"

Again, you are mistaken, this is exactly what the original poster suggested.

Too bad you couldn't accept a simple conversation in the spirit of fun and passing the time as it was intended to be.

 

[Alphawolf]

For as long as they were left alone, many of them were unable to invent the wheel (if not all) and most did not have a written language.

The wheel did not need to be invented by the Amerindians, what use would they have for it? The Americas were desolate in the animals that could be domesticated and they had no animals to pull anything so why would they have needed the wheel? As for written languages most old world cultures didn't invent the written word (we're writing in the Latin alphabet) they just "barrowed" it from the cultures that had it.
-the Wolf

 

[Anubisdk2]

The wheel did not need to be invented by the Amerindians, what use would they have for it? The Americas were desolate in the animals that could be domesticated and they had no animals to pull anything so why would they have needed the wheel? As for written languages most old world cultures didn't invent the written word (we're writing in the Latin alphabet) they just "barrowed" it from the cultures that had it.
-the Wolf

Well, I agree with you to an extent. However, the Koreans, Chinese, Japanese, Arabs, Greeks all have their own Alphabet, why couldn't any native american tribe create one?

 

[mossmonster]

The wheel did not need to be invented by the Amerindians, what use would they have for it? The Americas were desolate in the animals that could be domesticated and they had no animals to pull anything so why would they have needed the wheel?

The wheel is a very important advancement for any civ.

In human powered form it can be used as a wheelbarrow or pushcart to transport items or loads too big to carry. Using a wheel in a pulley as a block and tackle setup it can be used to drag large items. Add a simple tripod setup and it can be used to lift animals for cleaning, beams for building structures, or lifting obstacles/obstructions off of trails. Spinning wheels can be used to make wool into thread. Laid flat it can be used as a pottery wheel. Water powered as a mill it can be used to make food production much easier. As a windmill it can be used to pump water for irrigation. I'm sure I'm forgetting a few dozen more uses but the idea is that there's much more to a wheel than just as a draft wagon.

 

[Hannabir]

Being a history teacher, I will never disrespect another person's cultural heritage. But, I must draw the line with the native americans. For as long as they were left alone, many of them were unable to invent the wheel (if not all) and most did not have a written language.

The knowledge of Writing was widespread among the Amerinds long before contact.
And with the possible exception of China, none of the civs in the game invented The Wheel either. They learned it from others. The Iroquois, however, were close, as they had already invented hoops and sledges. Because of where they lived, the wheel was not a priority, but there is no reason why they wouldn't have made the last step. Their civilization was progressing, not stationary.

 

[Hannabir]

Well, I agree with you to an extent. However, the Koreans, Chinese, Japanese, Arabs, Greeks all have their own Alphabet, why couldn't any native american tribe create one?

Some of those you mentioned do not have an alphabet, and the same goes for other civs in the game.
The northern Amerinds, however, do. It's called the Pickering alphabet and it is used by almost all peoples. There are even two alphabets, because the Cherokee invented another.

 

[paralipsis]

The knowledge of Writing was widespread among the Amerinds long before contact.

It really depends on what you mean by writing. Literacy is not as clear cut as it first appears. The Inca knot system is a good example of something that one may or may not describe as a language system. By some definitions, having a complex symbology is akin to a written language, in other cases one may require a more complete set of syntactic rules. It gets even more complicated when we can't be sure whether there were syntactic rules for some of these systems of not.

 

[mossmonster]

And with the possible exception of China, none of the civs in the game invented The Wheel either. They learned it from others.

The ancient Egyptians learned the wheel from China. Thanks for that info, be sure to inform everyone of your new find.

 

[Hannabir]

The wheel is a very important advancement for any civ.

Yet almost none invented it.

In human powered form it can be used as a wheelbarrow or pushcart to transport items or loads too big to carry. Using a wheel in a pulley as a block and tackle setup it can be used to drag large items.

In the northeastern forests, a sledge did a much better job.

Add a simple tripod setup and it can be used to lift animals for cleaning, beams for building structures, or lifting obstacles/obstructions off of trails.

You need no tripod to lift a beaver or deer. Even so, lifting can and was done easily without a wheel. Entire pyramids were built without one.

Spinning wheels can be used to make wool into thread.

Nice if you have no sheep.

Laid flat it can be used as a pottery wheel.

Certainly, but it is not a necessity that deserves the label 'very important'.

Water powered as a mill it can be used to make food production much easier.

Not needed if trenches work just fine, and the mountains required another technology altogether.

As a windmill it can be used to pump water for irrigation.

The irrigation systems of the pueblo tribes are still the most efficient in the world today.

 

[mossmonster]

Your trolling joke has gone on long enough, grow up. Look at the Egyptians own pictures and you'll see them rolling sleds using logs as primitive wheels. The civ game picture of the construction of the Great Pyramid show this as well if you care to look. Is this some kind of childish game to see how many times you can simply say ridiculous and totally unsubstantiated, unsupported, and made up 'facts' you totally refuse to provide the slightest bit of evidence for?


http://www.civfanatics.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=38&c=4


You're totally right about everything. The Europeans didn't invent anything, ever. The native americans in your fantasy world are the height of civilization and the wheel is the most useless invention ever dreamed up, albeit by the Chinese!

 

[elderotter]

I think what was being pointed out was this - these peoples got along very well without the wheel. The wheel was a labor saving device. These peoples didnt let hard work stand in their way. They did invent/re-invent on their own many things Europeans claim credit for. They had a excellent sense of astronomy, they had an excellent trade network from coast to coast and North to south, they used gentics when inventing maize. They practiced animal husbandry. They had excellent arts and crafts. They invented sports, such as handball, lacrosse, etc.
Also trolling isnt about disagreeing with your point of view. There is alot of debate on this discussion in the scientific world..and the old euro-centric views are very slowly being overturned. I also have seen enough in my 50+ years to know that being a Teacher doesnt mean you are automatically right.
We need to disagree without being disagreeable ok?

 

[Turner]

Moderator Action: This thread has gone on long enough.

And I'd just like to say, as an Indian, or 'Native American', I'm not at all disappointed by the lack of Indian tribes in the game. Why? Because it's a game.