new guy needs help

[flipped again]

Hi guys,

I’m not sure what to do next….

I’m playing Vanilla as Egypt
Deity
Standard Pangaea
Vs 7 opponents

I just captured America’s Great Library with a stack of Knights, catapulting me into the Industrial Age.

I checked how soon I can get Steam Power … unfortunately even at 100 percent science I’d still get it in 40 turns.

The big dogs right now are China and the Iroqui. I tried to incite war between these two but the Iroquis would not want to join me versus China. Then I realized he was in an alliance with China already (vs England, who is almost decimated)

This is the first time I’ve managed to capture the GL and right now I’m at a loss as to what to do. What techs do I research first?

Scroll down to post #7 for the saved game
or:
http://rapidshare.com/files/120277885/510_AD_after_capturing_GL_city.SAV.html

 

[geishapunk]

You maybe need to get more cities, more infrastructure on your tiles and more infrastructue in your cities! Research 40 Turns at 100% means that your economy is to weak.

Maybe you could post us a screenie of your empire or a savegame.

 

[TheOverseer714]

Something in that reminds me of Darski's England game, there may be a glitch. A picture, as they say, is worth a thousand words. Let us see what your situation is with a screenshot.

 

[geishapunk]

Just a quick view at the pic:

I counted 15 cities on your screenie, which not very much on a standard map. In the early stages of the game you must expand, expand, expand. Grab as many land as you can! You are producing wealth in cities near to your capital??? I cannot look at the save, but don´t you have buildings to build in these cities?

Do you have libs an markets in your cities? With zero science only 116 Gold plus.... how many units do you have? Remember in Monarchy more cities mean more unit support. So if you have a large military force use it! You need more cities.

Next thing is that IMHO you have too many irrigated tiles, means that some of your cities must have a great food surplus, but these cities are already at the pop maximum. Why not building aqeuducts in some of these 6pop citites? Chop that forest at Memphis and in the area east of Thebes.

So, back to work now! Hopes that helps a little bit!

 

[geishapunk]

I cannot download the Savegame as it has beedn downloaded too much times for the free account.

 

[vmxa]

It is free here, just use the upload at the bottom of the page, when you use Post Reply.

 

[flipped again]

Thanks, vmxa

 

[flipped again]

Just a quick view at the pic:

You are producing wealth in cities near to your capital??? I cannot look at the save, but don´t you have buildings to build in these cities?

So, back to work now! Hopes that helps a little bit!

I think these cities are too corrupt.

 

[geishapunk]

Well i did a quick view at your game! Where are your workers? You need some to work on the tiles. Your cities are working unworked tiles, and as i thought some of your cities have food surplus but can´t grow anymore. Your city placement around the capital is to tight, your capital as about 7 specs??? Thats a no go! You don´t have Literature, so no libs. You don´t have courthouses in your cities, they will reduce corruption and make these cities productive.!

Trade for some luxes to make people happy!

To be honest, i suggest you to start a new game on a lower level. You said you are new to the game, so starting on Deity is not a good idea! I am playing for several years now and played the older versions of Civ before, and still play on Regent (Well i paused for a long time i have to admit). I will move up to Monarch the next game.

Start on the lowest level and learn the game mechanics, learn to know the buildings and their effects, and then move up one level. Play several games on this level, and if you keep them winning move up to the next level. And so on!

But don´t start with Deity!

 

[Lord Emsworth]

I had a look at your game too. And at first glance it simply looks disastrous. There are absolutely no workers left, you are fairly small, and hopelessly behind on techs.

However there are a few very redeeming things.

Firstly, you captured the GLib. So, on the interturn (510-520 AD) a lot of techs will come in that propel you straight into the IA. Good job, really. On the turn after this tech influx, you are only down one tech, Nationalism, to only one civ, China. You are even up a few tech on some civs, like Greece and the Iroquois, who incidentally have luxes for sale.

Your military - apart form the total lack of workers - isn't that bad at all. You have 31 knights nearly all of which are veterans. That is something at least to work with. What's more is that with the influx of techs from the GLib, you get Military Tradition and that means Cavs as you also have Saltpeter. The bad news about the Saltpeter is that it is directly under a city, so no pillaging your own resource for now. (See below though)

One of the problems is that a good deal of your Knights ATM are stationed in just captured Washington, the GLib city, far away. But there is a very easy solution to that 'problem.' Simply move all the knights down there into Washington and gift that city away to, say, the English. (Washington, after the tech influx has lost all of its value, and it is probably just a matter of a few turns before either the Americans recapture it or the city just flips back.) Each and every unit in Washington, when you gift it away, will just be teleported home to Thebes, where you now can easily upgrade them to Cavs.

You actually have quite a decent amount of cash. Sooo, upgrading your knights to Cavs isn't so much a problem. For the initial 31 units the upgrade costs 620 gold, which is a piece of cake, considering that you have about 3.600 gold stored up.

It gets better though on the military side and I almost missed one tiny and fantastic fact. You are Egypt. And you haven't had your GA yet. You can still build War Chariots! That is totally great. Each one of those costs only 20 shields, and hence can easily be build in 2-3 turns in your cities. With an additional amount of 120 gold each of those can then be upgraded to a veteran Cavalry. Considering the sizeble stack of cash that you have lying around you should easily be in a position to turn your 31 knights (510 AD) into about 80+ cavs in maybe only a dozen of turns.

Wrt cities and city improvements, well, you mainly put barracks, markets and temples into your city. There are also a few granaries, and one cath and one colosseum. The cath and the colloseum are a bit useless, but otherwise that is fairly OK. The temples, now that you already have them, give you at least some culture. Otherwise a few places could need some growth maybe.



Anyway, I took the liberty to play a few turns. Attached is a save from 540 AD and here is - roughly - what I did:

Spoiler :

510 AD:
a little micromananging, put some tax collectors back to work, and sold the cath and the col. Othewise mainly looking around though.
IBT: About 20 techs come in. (in hindsight, I should have revolted here already, but I totally slept that over)

520 AD:
I DoW China. And get an MA with our neighbors, the Greeks against them and the Americans. I pay them about 30gpt and some upfront cash for the alliances. Now that the Greeks and the Chinese are at war, all of a sudden Alex is making a lot of gpt when before the MA he was making none. That is because firstly he gets 30gpt from us, and secondly he probably was paying Mao gpt for something or other. Anyway, the Sino-Grecian D) puts me in the position of selling Democracy and the Theory of Gravity to the Greeks. He pays one lux (Dyes?), about 60gpt, and some upfront cash.

(The point here of sowing the seed of war between those two civs was firstly to bring any deals between the two of them to an end. This worked totally great, and I think the 30 gpt that now flow into our pockets and no longer into Mao's are well worth it. A second point of making them fight is actully not getting Greece's help against China. Rather what I have in mind is wearing out Greece a little, and then later, when the MA is over, to maybe introduce them to the big stack of Cavalry that we are going to build.)

I also get a MA with the Iroquois against the Chinese. To do that I mainly use some upfront cash. After that, I sell Democracy (IIRC) to them for 1 lux (Spices?), all his cash (incl. what I gave him) and 2 gpt. The 2 gpt is all that he has.

(The main point here is to simply give this neighbor of ours something to do. Otherwise he might get stupid ideas like attacking us. And what is more, is that it is unlikely that the Chinese sign them against us, when we already signed them against the Chinese. (China has a lot of cash) )

I also move all the knights down in America's territory into Washington, and well, gift the city to the English. It is pointless to try and hold it. The units that I moved in now are teleported to Thebes.

I select one of the Knights and hit shift-U to upgrade them all in one big go.

As one last action, I revolt. And after that end the turn.

IBT: China makes an MA with the Indians against us. And the end of the IBT I select The Republic as the new government.

530 AD: I make an alliance with the Iroquois against the Indians. 31gpt need to be paid to Hiawatha to convince him of our cause. In return we are now in a position to sell him the remaining two tech that we are up, Theory of Gravity and Military Tradition, for 70 gpt and one lux (silks?).

Further MMing. In some place I change the build order from Cav to War Chariot. I change some places to build workers. I put one town to build a 'duct. I disband some of the warriors that are remaining towards Cavs and Chariots.

IBT: A few Cavs finish and the town can now continue to build War Chariots. Some other places finish the first few War Chariots.

540 AD: Nothing much done yet.

The military now consists of:
34 Cavs, 3 WCh, 9 Warriors.

The income is about ~220 gpt, and there are more than 3.300 gold in the bank.

Research: None. It is pretty pointless to try to do some real research at the moment as the empire is too small with too little pop for that. A min-run with a lone scientist may be an option though.

Luxes and Resources:
Horses, Iron, Saltpeter; Wines, Ivory (all in our territory),
Dyes (import from Greece),
Spices, Silks (import from the Iroquois)

Wars:
China, America, India
I doubt there will be much action though as the empire is well shielded by the Iroquois and the Greece. The only point where some enemy troops could reach us, would be trough France. It might be a good idea to draw Joan on our side as well.

I think a mid term goal for your game could now well be to swallow one or maybe even two neighbors. And in the mid to long run, if you happen to get a leader, to make the then hopefully conquered territory profitable. As I said at the beginning of the post, the situation on first glance looks disastrous. However on second and third glance, I think it is even winnable with some skillfull play.

 

[flipped again]

Well i did a quick view at your game! Where are your workers? You need some to work on the tiles. Your cities are working unworked tiles, and as i thought some of your cities have food surplus but can´t grow anymore. Your city placement around the capital is to tight, your capital as about 7 specs??? Thats a no go! You don´t have Literature, so no libs. You don´t have courthouses in your cities, they will reduce corruption and make these cities productive.!

Trade for some luxes to make people happy!

To be honest, i suggest you to start a new game on a lower level. You said you are new to the game, so starting on Deity is not a good idea! I am playing for several years now and played the older versions of Civ before, and still play on Regent (Well i paused for a long time i have to admit). I will move up to Monarch the next game.

Start on the lowest level and learn the game mechanics, learn to know the buildings and their effects, and then move up one level. Play several games on this level, and if you keep them winning move up to the next level. And so on!

But don´t start with Deity!

I've won in emperor using the "Babylon's Deity Settlers" strategy but Deity is a whole new ballgame so I needed to rewire my thinking (got too used to Babylon's strat of brokering its era tech)


Thank you for the input Geishapunk and Lord Emsworth. Can't wait to play these saved games you were so kind to play for me.

 

[flipped again]

This is playing from Lord Emsworth’s saved game:

540 AD
Moved some troops to garrison my border cities.

Paid France 315 gold to war China.

Deleted some warriors to hurry some production.



550 AD
sent a worker to irrigate a tile near Giza.

Deleted some more warriors.

More defense adjustments.



560 AD
Sent a worker to road a tile at Corrupt.

I notice an Indian Musketman near Heliopolis: I dispatch a Cavalry to do away with him.

Irrigating near Lisht to aid growth.

I notice that Giza is at population 6 and won’t grow beyond that anymore. Hmmm…. I decided to make an aqueduct to get it to “city” state so I can get the defense bonus considering it’s a border city (some input needed please…. is the aqueduct worth it despite the corruption in this city?)

I played turn 570 AD but decided to scrap it because I’m unsure whether to continue war chariot production (on this turn I have 9… is that enough to start a GA?)

here's the save:

 

[geishapunk]

I played several turns as well and choosed some different way. I did some rebuilding of your cityplacement, made peace with America, as i can see no good in the war against them anymore. I then build some settlers and declared war on the french. I hoped to get Steam Power from them via the Peace Treaty, but no way. Got 3 Slaves an about 16gpt from them. I made peace to switch gov to democracy an use the GA to build up.

West-Egypt:

Spoiler :

Founded Athribis to get that Cattle and grab some land

East-Egypt

Spoiler :

Founded Edfu to grab some land.
Lisht will be raized next and is going to be resettled in another spot (but not 100% sure about where)
Avaris will be raized, and i will keep Marseilles

South-Egypt

Spoiler :

Raized the conquered french city and replaced it with Kahun.
Founded Busiris and then i had to conquer Lyons (France did not wanted to make peace, so i "had to"! )
I try to replace Butho

Far, far away

Spoiler :

Founded Pithom to get the gems. I am unsure what to do with Washington. America is not willing to buy it back...

Your forces:

Spoiler :

I used an still use the Warriors to push Worker build up. I first disband one Warrior and then pay the rest.

So, thats my input. But i can see that you are already playing otherwise!

Just another point: you wrote that you are new to this game. It is maybe right that you won one game on Emporer, but you should win some more games on a lower level. I still suggest you to play on lower level, at least Regent (Well, i honestly would say more low), because there you will learn the game and then you can move up.

In my opinion China will win this game, maybe India.

 

[zerksees]

Looks like you have some good analysis here on what to do next. I would like to add a few cents here:
- Obviously you acquired these techs without research. Why stop now? Work the trade deals. Save the upkeep on libs and universities. Eventually you can start stealing techs.
- You can almost never have enough workers. 1 per city minimum (2 per if you have slaves).
- I disagree that you should go below Regent. If you won already at emperor, then why not go up a level? This is exactly what I did when I started, though emperor was the first level I actually lost (so I played several more there to get better before going up). You will find out your weak areas real quick if you go up a level. The key is to make adjustments. Make sure the reasons why you made certain choices (worker counts, city counts/placements, etc) are still valid at the next level.
- Persevere. Giving up and starting over is not usually my favorite option.

I am not looking at the pics from everyone else, since I think I might take this as a challenge.

Anyone know what happens if I play a game like this on C3C - does it go to demigod level?

 

[geishapunk]

@zerksees
You should win more than on single game on one level before you move up. I looked at his save and can say that he needs some more training!

- Tech deals won´t work, because he has nothing to offer! The AI won´t give you Steam Power for Wines and some gold. He got all the techs just from conquering the GL.

 

[AznWarlord]

You're playing Deity? You don't need my help.

 

[geishapunk]

I played several more turns, i am in democracy now an finished the research of Steam Power in 730. The only source of coal you have popped out are in the hills adjected to Marseilles! So the war against France brought some more good!

I am now researching Industrialization in 16 turns... you should have build libs an unis far more earlier!!!

 

[flipped again]

I played several more turns, i am in democracy now an finished the research of Steam Power in 730. The only source of coal you have popped out are in the hills adjected to Marseilles! So the war against France brought some more good!

I am now researching Industrialization in 16 turns... you should have build libs an unis far more earlier!!!

Hi sorry for the late reply. I'm at an internet Cafe right now (my prepaid at home ran out) Thank you for playing my game as well! I will take a look at your save once I get my home pc online again.


Zerksees, thank you for your input. I have been reading a lot of threads recently (including your win on a Tiny map on Deity using Rome) ... very inspiring. I'm currently reading Arathorn's SG (I think it's Lotr10) wherein they nuked the UN city, THEN won by UN! (I skipped to the end and am now reading how they managed that)

 

[geishapunk]

Your Prepaid ran out? Where are you coming from?

I did not posted a save, i don´t know if this would work, because i am playcin Civ III Conquest patched 1.22, i just posted some Screenies of your Empire Version geishapunk . I played several more turns and i still believe that the AI will win this game, your empire is becoming somehow productive now (Thebes now have about 37-39 spt), but this comes too late, the AI is far ahead in the tech pace and it still needs too much turns on research for Egypt.

 

[vmxa]

The original save is 1.29F, so if you play it using C3C, it will not work in vanilla. I do this all the time as I prefer the interface of C3C. You would have to play it in vanilla for him to use it.

I was busy with two SG's and Moo1 challenge, so I missed this one, sounds like it could be won. I do agree that winning a game on emperor, does not mean you are ready for deity.

Only that you could be, depends on how the game was played. I have not seen this one yet, but I do see many of these situations and the play from 4000BC to the posting is often handicapping the player, due to lack of workers or worker management.

Add in a less than stellar use of towns and you suddenly find the game is a lot harder at deity and mistakes are usually punished. Still it can be fun and a learning experience.