New leader trait?

[Thedrin]

But the biggest problem with Protective is with the AI Pillaging your improvements so even if you improved Wall and and castles that way... it'd still be considered underpowered in the human hands because of the pillaging.

I consider this bizarre. Every civ in the game is capable of preventing pillaging. Protective civs are not handicapped in any way.

The biggest problem with protective is that it provides a tiny fraction of its total bonus in the gunpowder era and beyond while every other military boosting trait spreads its bonus fairly evenly over all eras. Denying gunpowder units access to further drill promotions is the cause (though I'm not saying the fix is undoing this).

 

[kniteowl]

I've not seen this - or anything which implies it - written anywhere. Throw in that very few wonders would provide great spy points and that I really can't see cities being able to assign spy specialists* and I find it likely that the parallel will be with great generals.

*It could be argued that it's historically accurate (secret police/informants) but that's not reason enough to include it. There are only two bonuses which I could see them providing. The first is an anti foreign espionage bonus but this would reduce the need for counter espionage by your own spies - something I remember seeing described recently. The second would be to reduce unhappiness but that seems like a very powerful addition - unless a spy specialist only reduced unhappiness by 1 (useless) it would mean that a city would only be limited in growth by size.

Check the BTS info centre... I currently can't find the actual article that expresses or implies it.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=222075#GrSpy

The Great Spy is a new Great Person type who are born in your cities just like other Great People. They can perform the typical great person actions like settling in your city, starting a Golden Age, or building a unique building. In addition, Great Spies can infiltrate into enemy cities, giving you a significant advantage in espionage against that civilization, and these are totally invisible, even to other spies.

Edit: Nevermind I found it

http://pc.ign.com/articles/788/788749p1.html (Question 4)

IGNPC: Espionage has been given a significant upgrade this time around. Can you tell us a bit about the new espionage slider, spy units, and great spies?

Alex Mantzaris: Espionage has actually added a whole new dimension to the game. Its importance to your empire is now comparable to scientific research, culture, or income from taxes. This is because through the espionage slider you have the ability to divert part of your income towards espionage activities against other civilizations. Once you have reached certain thresholds of espionage investment, you start gaining some automatic intelligence benefits over rival civilizations.

You may also take a more aggressive approach to espionage, sending your spy units into foreign territory to gather further intelligence and to perform various missions of destruction and propaganda. Great Spies are born in your cities like Great Scientists or Great Prophets, and can perform the typical great person actions like settling in your city, starting a Golden Age, or building a unique building. In addition, Great Spies can infiltrate into enemy cities, giving you a significant advantage in espionage against that civilization.

 

[Thedrin]

An implementation that runs parallel to great generals than to other great people types seems like the more obvious way to go. It may work out very well but it's less easy to see it doing so. Predominantly because, as I already indicated, I can't see many ways in which great spy points can be accumulated.

Weren't great generals originally described as being generated in a similar manner to other great people? Maybe that statement about great spy generation was more about marketing the idea - getting the idea across - than giving a perfectly detailed description of the implementation.

 

[kniteowl]

An implementation that runs parallel to great generals than to other great people types seems like the more obvious way to go. It may work out very well but it's less easy to see it doing so. Predominantly because, as I already indicated, I can't see many ways in which great spy points can be accumulated.

Weren't great generals originally described as being generated in a similar manner to other great people? Maybe that statement about great spy generation was more about marketing the idea - getting the idea across - than giving a perfectly detailed description of the implementation.

This is from my assumption, I have no concrete evidence, but...

Maybe Generating Great Spies has something to do with the espionage slider, I know that the espionage slider is similar to the research slider and once you reach certain point of investment, your spies learn something new (eg- Steal a tech, poisoning water supply etc) so I think once you reach a new point of espionage research, you generate a new Great Spy.

But from what I interpret, it feels to me it's more likely that Great Spies will be generated like normal great people, but I could be wrong if that statement was to be interpreted very broadly.

LOL I think we're getting quite off topic here... maybe we should continue this at a more appropriate thread.

 

[Thedrin]

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=224054

I'm going to maintain my assumption that great spy points, like great general points, are awarded for succesfully completed espionage missions where the number of points awarded for any succesfully completed mission is dependent on the risk involved in undertaking the mission.

 

[LucyDuke]

I consider this bizarre. Every civ in the game is capable of preventing pillaging. Protective civs are not handicapped in any way.

The way I read the comment you're responding to is that Protective, with free CG promotions and whatever else, doesn't do squat to combat pillaging. Pillaging is the AI's favorite thing to do. If the AI had the sense to actually attack a city, Protective would be useful. If the AI just runs around pillaging, you get little or no use out of your free CG promotions. Protective isn't handicapped, of course not, but it's sort of just beside the point.

 

[Thedrin]

I read it that way as well. I just view protective as another trait with an emphasis on combat - not necessarily one whose sole purpose should be to help defend.

Besides, wouldn't it be overpowered if protective offered strong pillaging defences as well as strong city defences above that which are given to other civs? Civs should be vulnerable to some form of invasion.

If protective is to be improved, I lean towards switching bonuses from gunpowder units to siege units or giving free drill II instead of city garrison I or, much more powerfully, both - ideas outlined in KniteOwl's protective improving thread in the Warlords forum.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Well I think that given that Espionage Spending is in the same category as Research, Gold, or Culture Spending, then it makes sense to have a Spy Specialist to generate those points. That would then Mean they could also generate spy GPP.

For the OT, I sincerely hope that they Don't have a new trait, for a few reasons.
First of all more is typically worse, it makes the decisions less interesting
Second, as mentioned before, this would give them almost the Complete set of leaders.
Third, It would probably be better to tweak some existing traits for the new situations

 

[marioflag]

Well I think that given that Espionage Spending is in the same category as Research, Gold, or Culture Spending, then it makes sense to have a Spy Specialist to generate those points. That would then Mean they could also generate spy GPP.

For the OT, I sincerely hope that they Don't have a new trait, for a few reasons.
First of all more is typically worse, it makes the decisions less interesting
Second, as mentioned before, this would give them almost the Complete set of leaders.
Third, It would probably be better to tweak some existing traits for the new situations

I agree that not always more means better but there are so much new features in BtS that some new traits which are related to that features wouldn't be bad.
For example a seafaring trait or a trait related to espionage.

 

[Martinus]

Me too. But I'm backing industrious/philosophical, financial/organised and creative/philosophical to be the ones that are left out.

I don't think Creative/Philosophical is unbalanced - sure it is nice to have, but Creative is considered a weak trait overall. In fact, I'm hoping that Pericles will get the old Frederick's combo.

 

[Donny]

I know there is no way they are going to add it in this expansion, but wouldn't it be cool if every leader also gets a negative trait? (not my idea, I saw it in age of wonders but other games could have been first) The negative traits can be just the opposite of the existing ones, I think it would give each of the leaders a more unique personality. It is hard to not upset anyone though... some people don't like to see the bad things of their national hero being pointed out.

If they are going to add a new trait, my guess would be something like "diplomatic" because the expansion is supposed to focus on peace. It could give better relations with all AI's or some bonusses to the new spy system.

 

[kristopherb]

i like the idea of seafaring but it would have to with exploring.
im surprized that agg/char is in i whould of trought that would be hitler's traits.

 

[LucyDuke]

I read it that way as well. I just view protective as another trait with an emphasis on combat - not necessarily one whose sole purpose should be to help defend.

Besides, wouldn't it be overpowered if protective offered strong pillaging defences as well as strong city defences above that which are given to other civs? Civs should be vulnerable to some form of invasion.

If protective is to be improved, I lean towards switching bonuses from gunpowder units to siege units or giving free drill II instead of city garrison I or, much more powerfully, both - ideas outlined in KniteOwl's protective improving thread in the Warlords forum.

All it takes to improve Protective is to teach the AI to attack cities rather than just pillaging all the time. Improving the AI would improve the game all around, too. My 2.

 

[Gozert]

I don't think Creative/Philosophical is unbalanced - sure it is nice to have, but Creative is considered a weak trait overall. In fact, I'm hoping that Pericles will get the old Frederick's combo.

Pericles with Creative/Philosophical will be a monster. Cheap libraries, which enable 2 Scientists, generating 6 each, and cheap theatres and odeons not only allow every new city to get some good culture running quickly, they also give +6 total when running 20% on the culture slider. Of course this cuts your wealth/science rate, but the extra population you can support will be able to offset and often exceed the 20% investment by working commerce/specialists. There is plenty of synergy to be found here.

I don't think Creative is weak at all. The +2 /turn bonus is great in the early game for claiming land and getting your city's fat crosses quickly. I don't have to explain why cheap libraries are awesome. The cheap theatres and colloseum help to quickly raise the happiness limit of your city to support a bigger population. Creative is also awesome after you have captured an enemy city. The trait's +2 and cheaply whipped libraries and theatres will have you pumping a base 7 /turn (even worse if Pericles becomes Creative and his cheap odeons). This helps you from getting your newly captured city's radii from getting swamped by your enemy's culture.

 

[Thedrin]

Martinus:
I don't think Creative/Philosophical is unbalanced - sure it is nice to have, but Creative is considered a weak trait overall. In fact, I'm hoping that Pericles will get the old Frederick's combo.

I'm not certain that it is unbalanced but it is far stronger than it was when Frederick had it and I would rate it as one of the strongest unused combinations - purely because of the potential for a very early great scientist. For that reason I worry that it won't return. But if it does it will probably mark out my new favourite leader.

And I will simply state that I rate creative as a fantastic trait - even without the cheap libraries.

LucyDuke:
All it takes to improve Protective is to teach the AI to attack cities rather than just pillaging all the time. Improving the AI would improve the game all around, too. My 2

Throwing units at protective cities when you can draw them out by pillaging their territory is a far smarter tactic. While that complaint is valid in general, when it comes to invading protective civs, pillaging is the smarter choice for the AI (even if it's smart by accident).

 

[Gozert]

And I will simply state that I rate creative as a fantastic trait - even without the cheap libraries.

Creative is one of my favourite traits and one I really miss when I don't have it, especially in the early game. Not having to bother with getting a religion early on or building monuments/Stonehenge to get culture running in your new cities is a godsent. Not to mention all the precious production you save, which you can put it into early expansion/development.

Creative .

 

[Martinus]

Oh, I agree Creative is nice to have, but there are other traits that are better imo - to me Creative is a very useful crutch - it makes your life easier, true, but if you can learn to live without it (e.g. by founding and spreading an early religion, building Stonehenge or even Monuments, which are dirt cheap) there are other traits, which imo are much more useful and which cannot be duplicated through buildings (e.g. Spiritual or Charismatic).

Incidentally, there is a chance Pericles could also be Philosophical/Charismatic - now THAT would be a combo I'd love to have (either way, unless Pericles gets some really useless trait combo, he is likely to become one of my favourite leaders).

 

[Thedrin]

If you're only rating creative against the most powerful traits it's going to be difficult to argue against you. But if you want to explain why it is worse than weak or average traits - 'Creative is considered a weak trait overall' - then I don't mind giving it a go. Though it's probably best if it's in another thread.

 

[Gozert]

Incidentally, there is a chance Pericles could also be Philosophical/Charismatic - now THAT would be a combo I'd love to have (either way, unless Pericles gets some really useless trait combo, he is likely to become one of my favourite leaders).

I'm fairly certain that Pericles will have a combination of Philosophical, Creative and Charismatic. Pericles was a very good orator and a general in the Athenian army, while under his rule Greek philosophy, drama and literature were at their peak. Anyone of the possible combinations is still unused and would make for an interesting leader and possible future favourite of mine. I think Charismatic/Philosophical is a little too much like Alexander though. People wanted a Greek leader to represent the philosophical and cultural side of Ancient Greece.

 

[dutchking]

Does anyone know if there are any new traits in Beyond the Sword??