New Leader Traits

[MrPopov]

What do the new "national traits" do exactly?

The readme just says that they are new, not what they do exactly.

I am talking about the Power, Liberty, Tradition, etc leader traits that have been added in 2.1

I can't find any info anywhere about what they do exactly.

Thanks!

 

[Anaztazioch]

They do a lot
Wait for Walter Hawkwood to say it, i think hes most in topic in the team.

 

[Walter Hawkwood]

National Values (named a bit better in the next patch to reflect that they're actually traits of a civ, not a leader):

Tradition (NTr): +10% culture
Spirituality (NSp): +1 from temples, +1 from monasteries
Equality (NEq): +15%
Liberty (NLi): +1 from Courthouse, Free Speech and Universal Suffrage
Wealth (NWe): +10%
Progress (NPr): +5%
Power (NPo): +1 XP and +10% military unit production
Order (NOr): +1 and +1

 

[MrPopov]

thanks a lot for the info, I was especially curious about power. Adding this info even in just the background text in the civilopedia would be nice (and any other "hidden" bonuses like these, the background text doesn't have to just be copy/paste text from wikipedia

 

[Roland Johansen]

National Values (named a bit better in the next patch to reflect that they're actually traits of a civ, not a leader):

Tradition: +10% culture
Spirituality: +1 from temples, +1 from monasteries
Equality: +1 from civics of State Property and Labor Union
Liberty: +1 from Courthouse, Free Speech and Universal Suffrage
Wealth: +5%
Progress: +5%
Power: +1 XP and +10% military unit production
Order: +1 and +1

In my opinion, the bonus given by tradition is far weaker than the other ones. Health, happiness, gold, science and military production and experience are all things that you will notice and can use. The 10% culture bonus will maybe once in a game shift one tile of a long border. Sorry, but it seriously sounds rather useless.

It could of course be true that the tradition bonus is given to civilizations with otherwise strong leaders and unique buildings. I didn't check that.

By the way, it is a fun way to make civilizations more different.

 

[Walter Hawkwood]

Actually, tradition is my favorite national value. It really gives a good bonus - for any city that takes time with culture (and already by medieval you can produce more than 20 culture), it becomes stronger than vanilla creative trait. Combining it with creative leaders really does for a cultural punch. Basically, the value on NVs really goes down to one's playing style. Personally, I find wealth to be of very little use, because I try to put most of the taxes in research all the time - but many people find it great, as they do otherwise. I think currently NVs are well-balanced.

 

[Roland Johansen]

Actually, tradition is my favorite national value. It really gives a good bonus - for any city that takes time with culture (and already by medieval you can produce more than 20 culture), it becomes stronger than vanilla creative trait. Combining it with creative leaders really does for a cultural punch. Basically, the value on NVs really goes down to one's playing style. Personally, I find wealth to be of very little use, because I try to put most of the taxes in research all the time - but many people find it great, as they do otherwise. I think currently NVs are well-balanced.

The wealth one gives +10% wealth now, doesn't it? That's twice as much as the science bonus. So if you have the science rating on average at 66.66666..%, then the wealth bonus is equal to the science bonus. To get your average science rating, you do have to take into account those turns where you're using 0% science and 100% gold because you want to upgrade units. I think that most players average gold rating over a game is higher than they would expect.

But I agree that the wealth bonus would be weaker than the science bonus if both were an equal percentage. People usually won't have an average gold rating of 50%.

The culture bonus is (in my opinion) only interesting when you're going for a cultural victory. The other ones are always interesting. That is a bit of a problem in my opinion. But you're right that this boils down to opinions, so further discussion is of no use.

Thanks for listening.

 

[Anaztazioch]

walth trait goves gold not commerce. So it will only give you gold, you cant change gold into science points. Thats the differance betwean commerce and gold.

 

[Roland Johansen]

walth trait goves gold not commerce. So it will only give you gold, you cant change gold into science points. Thats the differance betwean commerce and gold.

I know the difference between gold and commerce quite well and I didn't say that they were the same.

As long as you aren't running at 100% science with a gold surplus, it is quite easy to change gold into science points. Just run at a higher science rate than what your economy can support. You will lose gold and gain extra science.

What I was saying is that the wealth bonus is equal to the science bonus if you're running at 2/3-rd science rate (66.66666...%) on average (you can't set a 2/3-rd science rate, but you can on average run a 2/3-rd science rate).

Assume you have 30 commerce porduction and run at 2/3-rd science, 1/3-rd gold. In that case, a normal civilization gets 20 science and 10 gold.
A civilization with progress gets 20*1.05 =21 science, 1 science point extra.
A civilization with wealth gets 10 * 1.10=11 gold, 1 gold point extra.

In that sense, progress and wealth are equal to each other when you run at a 66.66..% science rate on average.

I think an average science rate of 66.66..% is quite realistic so I guess the wealth trait and the progress trait are well balanced compared to oneanother.