New Preview up @ Apolyton

tcjsavannah said:
I'm not sure I like the whole, "build up one city for a while before you go get your second one started" thing. Especially since expansion was SUCH an early strategy for almost all of the AI. We were so ingrained that if you didn't branch out early, you were going to get overwhelmed. Is the AI not so expansion-conscious?

That's beautiful, though. All our old strategies are useless! This is a whole new animal. I love it!

I remember how excited I was when the Civ3 AI behaved in a non-Civ2 way. It was so exhilerating to have to adapt.

So this new version is probably going to make me wet myself!
 
tcjsavannah said:
I'm not sure I like the whole, "build up one city for a while before you go get your second one started" thing. Especially since expansion was SUCH an early strategy for almost all of the AI. We were so ingrained that if you didn't branch out early, you were going to get overwhelmed. Is the AI not so expansion-conscious?

Yeah, but that made the early game brainless and tedious. (ok, not brainless but somewhat boring). I think this is going to be cool: the major civs take a while to expand territorially, meanwhile the barbs rule the countryside. This sounds more realistic and a lot more fun.
 
So how long did you go before you branched out for that second city? 3000 AD? 2000? 1 BC?
 
Hankman said:
Great read, I can't wait for the game to get released. The new combat system sounds awesome. I'm not sure what's the logic behind new cities bringing up the upkeep costs in the old ones but it fits my playstyle.
As the preview mentions, it's a major part of the effort taken to prevent ICS (Infinite City Sprawl) from being a successful strategy. ICS was one of the main criticised parts of Civ 3.
 
darkdude said:
As the preview mentions, it's a major part of the effort taken to prevent ICS (Infinite City Sprawl) from being a successful strategy. ICS was one of the main criticised parts of Civ 3.
No, I meant how does it relate to real life? But I guess they can justify it by increased communication expenses and paperwork or something like that.
 
Also, Hankman, you have to admit that this is a FAR, FAR better way of limiting Infinite city sleaze than that awful corruption system ever was!! I say a HUGE thumbs up to Firaxis for getting it right this time out!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.
 
@Aussie_Lurker: What did you think of this?

City improvement maintenance is gone – instead, there is city maintenance for which you need to start paying as soon as you build a new city.
It sounds to me like the absence of improvement maintenance increases the incentive to have a few, highly-developed cities.

And you're right, the end of corruption and waste is good riddance to bad rubbish!
 
At first, I was disappointed by the loss of improvement maintainance but then realised that, once you have more than half a dozen cities-and factor in distance issues-the price you will probably be paying per city may well exceed what you would have paid for those improvements anyway. That said, I think there is room enough to mod in costs for city improvements or, at the least, wonders. Its gonna be one of those 'wait and see' things. If Solver and MarkG feel the new maintainance system is truly balanced, without improvement maintainance costs, then I am inclined to believe them. If it proves not to be, then I wouldn't be suprised if it gets modded or patched back in.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.
 
It will simply be a different way of approaching the game. In prior Civ games, buildings cost money and cities are free. In Civ4, buildings are free but each city costs money. That made spamming lots of tiny cities with few buildings in them the killer strategy for prior Civ games (why not? cities are free!) That clearly looks like it won't be possible in Civ4, and it looks like a welcome change to me. 5 large, well-developed cities should definitely beat 10 tiny ones with no infrastructure whatsoever. :)
 
We agree that Civ4 definitely creates powerful incentives to have a few, highly-developed cities, then. It seems this has a lot of non-obvious implications for other aspects of play.

For example, a few highly-developed cities means that your cities will probably have large populations. Suddenly, Wonders that offer single-city effects (e.g., Copernicus' Observatory in Civ3) become much more valuable than previously, and empire-wide Wonders (e.g., Sun Tzu's Academy in Civ3) are slightly less valuable (relatively speaking), because a single large city is a much greater fraction of your nation's total output.

Another consequence of the large-city phenomenon is the change in the goals of warfare. Razing a city becomes much more costly, because of the opportunity cost of giving up a city. Pillaging improvements, however, becomes much more powerful. For one thing, large cities are more prone to starvation than small cities (more dependent on improved farmland, and less likelihood of enough food production from alternative tiles in the city radius). This will be reinforced by the fact that pillaging will now give the pillager a gold bonus.

Finally, the increased value of individual cities will probably make wars quicker. A powerful early advance that captures a city or two might grind to a halt in Civ3 (leaving aside AI incompetence). Now, the loss of a city will be a devastating blow, denying your nation a large fraction of national output and potentially causing the entire war effort to collapse.

Of course, this danger will hopefully result in more vehement defenses of individual cities, as well as encouraging the AI to sue for peace when a city's loss is imminent. Perhaps we'll see most wars take place outside of cities, and once one side reaches the enemy's walls, a peace settlement is usually reached.
 
Hankman said:
No, I meant how does it relate to real life? But I guess they can justify it by increased communication expenses and paperwork or something like that.

The increased cost to your entire Civ could be additional infrastructure upkeep, the increased bureauracy needed to run things like schools, clinics, hospitals, police, fire, etc.

Let's say that Modern day England decided to invade and take over France and they were successful. Even if the former French citizens resigned themselves to their new homeland, England would still face additional costs in trying to support the cities, even if the cities were pretty much self-sufficient.

Think of it as a way to represent the additional 'waste' and red-tape that comes with having a large, bloated, inefficient government.
 
No, I meant how does it relate to real life? But I guess they can justify it by increased communication expenses and paperwork or something like that.
Imagine a new city is built and they build a heated swimming pool; great to attract new citizens. Now the other cities become jealous so they also build a (bigger) swimming pool. Everywhere the maintenance costs rise.

Actually I believe this mechanism was put in for gameplay issues mainly, but there's always to imagine something to relate it to real life :)
 
Why can't it be corruption implemented with a different mechanism? Instead of losing the city's productivity to corruption, though, you have to pay extra money to get the same amount of administration done due to graft, incompetence, etc. Furthermore, the bigger your empire, the more layers of bureaucracy you have. That enables you to manage a larger empire, but the efficiency of each particular bureaucrat is less.
 
What concerns me about the combat system is the importance of the upgrades and that most of them can only be gotten from combat, AFAIK. If I take on a peaceful stance but have enough units that I would have been able to defend myself in civ3, aren't I in big trouble if an aggressive civ that has already been in wars decides to attack me? He's going to have bonuses and I won't. By being peaceful I may have a tech advantage to counteract this, but maybe not. My cities may be hard to take, but if I hide in them he can pillage all my improvements.
 
Well he wil have lost units if he has been in war, the upgrades just help make up for the fact that his units are fewer/less supported by buildings/infrastructure than yours.
 
Leuf said:
What concerns me about the combat system is the importance of the upgrades and that most of them can only be gotten from combat, AFAIK. If I take on a peaceful stance but have enough units that I would have been able to defend myself in civ3, aren't I in big trouble if an aggressive civ that has already been in wars decides to attack me? He's going to have bonuses and I won't. By being peaceful I may have a tech advantage to counteract this, but maybe not. My cities may be hard to take, but if I hide in them he can pillage all my improvements.
But that's realistic. If you are a peaceful nation, your troops will not have the experience of the troops of a warmongering nation.
 
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