New resource system, unit attrition and more

[NikG]

I would second pap1723's version of this, which is essentially that we use certain resources as currency. (If you think about it, gold supposedly in the game as both a resource and a currency, but not connected).

Tanks could use up 1 oil maintenance just as generic units use up 1 gold maintenance. (It would be important for civic choices NOT to affect this, unless Environmentalism reduced oil maintenance or something like that).

Given that such mechanisms are already in the game, this would probably be a lot easier to implement, model, and have the AI "understand" than more radical changes like supply lines.

The supply lines are not something to understand really. It is passiv and underlying, and there is no active player interaction with the supply lines. Each unit will get supplied each turn based on how far they are from the nearest friendly city. Of course the AI should understand this, and it is very possible to add this, it only requires a small tweak so if the total amount of oil reaches a certain threshold it will either not move the unit or move it closer to friendly cities.

To truly model this, I think you would have to treat each of these resources as a "yield," like food, hammers, commerce. This would also provide you with the concept of a "proven reserve," which I might model as follows:

Terrain: Desert
Improvement: Oil Well
Yield: 0 food, 0 hammer, 1 commerce, 10 oil

No not at all! There will be no 4 yield for oil. Oil is still a normal resource, and you will x amount of oil if you control a oil well. The 4th yield magic was just an example, and more simplistic in its essens. (Not saying that it wasnt helpful) If oil should be a yield, then iron should to etc. and suddenly we have 100 different yields, which will be overkill!! The 4th yield magic is nice, becuase it models excately how it was in Master of Magic and in MoM magic was as natural as food. Oil is natural, but not as natural like food (read "the lands fertility"), and unless I find something really nice to add as a 4th yield I will stick to the original 3.

To borrow a concept from my "strip mine" mod (forthcoming ), the Oil Well behaves like a reverse cottage: it "upgrades" to 8 oil, 6 oil, 4 oil, etc. To prevent exploitation of this (pillage the well and rebuild it), (a) when pillaged, the well goes UP (down in value), and (b) the first time you build the well, you "terraform" the tile into a tile on which you CAN'T build more wells. This is a hack, of course; I'm sure using the SDK or even just Python you can simply keep a variable on each tile that tells you how "old" each well is so you can set the correct amount when you rebuild after a pillage.

It is a very nice addition I must say. But I dont understand how you would added new variables without the SDK

Now the real question is: If properly modeled can we start using Civ4 for educational purposes?

Yes indeed Civ4 could turn into an educational game...

 

[Watiggi]

Reading Padmewan's, I quite like that idea.

Look forward to giving it a go one day

 

[Padmewan]

If oil should be a yield, then iron should to etc. and suddenly we have 100 different yields, which will be overkill!!

Well, this depends quite a bit on how many of these resources you want to model, and why. For example, for each era you could simply decide that there's one or two key "strategic resources" and so have a yield that works like "magic" in the thread I referenced: in the first three eras iron provides that 4th yield; in the next one, saltpeter; etc... Each resource and its corresponding improvement then goes obsolete, so that by the next era that resource no longer generates the "strategic yield."

You had written that oil should be treated like gold, and in the real world it is. The Roman armies didn't need to keep its Legions supplied with iron the way we need to supply ours with oil (gasoline), right? So what other resource works like oil in terms of upkeep and supply?

Each unit will get supplied each turn based on how far they are from the nearest friendly city. Of course the AI should understand this, and it is very possible to add this, it only requires a small tweak so if the total amount of oil reaches a certain threshold it will either not move the unit or move it closer to friendly cities.

I agree with this; at the same time, there is a value to simplicity and abstracting concepts to be playable. Perhaps the easiest way to model what you're describing is simply to add another upkeep model: currently there are two, flat upkeep and upkeep outside of home borders. A third should be upkeep in hostile territory. This keeps it nice and simple, but still captures the idea you are suggesting.

I think having units suddenly stop being able to move, fight, etc. is not that fun. Abstracting the upkeep model like this would capture your idea by making wars more expensive without adding micromanagement to the players or AI.

 

[NikG]

Well Padmewan I see you point at first. But still have different yield at different periode of time and different improvement for these will be awful complicated, the AI should be tweaked rather heavily.

The Roman armies didn't need to keep its Legions supplied with iron the way we need to supply ours with oil (gasoline), right? So what other resource works like oil in terms of upkeep and supply?

No the ancient units shouldnt be supplied with iron, seems silly, they should be supplied with food actually, but right now I will jump over this, and just get the oil working and maybe implement addiotional supply support costs. Oil was just what first sprung into my mind, becuase without oil a modern society can NOT AND WILL NOT WORK, and even wars cant be fought without oil, so it was the first. We could add a saltpeter also for pre-modern units, I dont know. I want ideas, it what I have asked for, so please supply me

I agree with this; at the same time, there is a value to simplicity and abstracting concepts to be playable. Perhaps the easiest way to model what you're describing is simply to add another upkeep model: currently there are two, flat upkeep and upkeep outside of home borders. A third should be upkeep in hostile territory. This keeps it nice and simple, but still captures the idea you are suggesting.

Good idea, but still this is simple as it can be! What I am suggesting is still NO OIL = NO MODERN SOCIETY, and especially no wars either. I feel "just" having gold as a upkeep model was to simplistic, so I decided to add more.

I think having units suddenly stop being able to move, fight, etc. is not that fun. Abstracting the upkeep model like this would capture your idea by making wars more expensive without adding micromanagement to the players or AI.

Well I decided that units will still be able to move when having no fuel, but at a reduced rate. Goddamit read what I have written! The idea is just that you cannot travel all the way around the world without fuel, so you have to take this into account when planning to move. And there is no micromanagement really it will be passive. Units will be resupplied automaticly, and no attack is just to show that like the real world, the longer your supply lines are, the lesser condition your soldiers and their equiment will be in. That is the reason why Napolean nor Hitler managed to conquer Russia.

 

[Impaler[WrG]]

Please reconsider your supply system, simply basing it off distance from friendly cities is not only unrealistic, it will ruin gameplay and cripple the AI.

Things should be keept as simple as possible, the changes to resorce output is already a BIG change which will need a lot of AI adjustment. Player will grasp the concept quickly enough but the supply ideas ontop of this is a lot.

If you absolutly must have it make it a quantity or units that are "active" consume Oil, the player can set units to "inactive/reserves" to decreese consumption. Reserves cant move/attack and get -50% as mentioned earlier. They also cost less maintance. If desired you could charge double if a unit is outside its own territory.

That would be simple and straitforward enough for players to get without any heavy micro-managment like a distance based system would entail. It would also be about a 100 times simpler for the AI to deside what should be active/reserves. It also removes the nessesity of having every single unit have its own "supply" quantity which would be horrible to manage.

Its also vastly more realistic, Naval units have been sailing around the world for hundreds of years, armies have operated thousands of miles from their homelands since the time of Alexander the Great. True their are situations ware armies were weakened due to lack of resorces (Romel in North Africa being a classic Example) but these were situations ware supplies were activly being cut off by enemy action, not simply "distance" from Germany.

Lastly, if were going to have oil used to supply modern units then some equivilent is needed in earlier eras, Anchient Units would be Food based (all your Grains and Meats could be lumped together as Food or some thing along these lines like grain for Cavalry, meat for Infantry). Early Gunpowder units might need Saltpeter as their supply. In any case the supply resorce can be different then the build resorce even in early ages.

Lastly a strong market system needs to exist so you dont get resorce screwed, their should be some resorces avalible (at high price) even when no other player in the game is selling (think of it as smuggling).

EDIT: Seems you and I were posting at the same time and had the same idea when it comes to Food and Saltpeter, ok well as for Micro-managment. You say your idea for distance resupply requires no Micro-managment because its dont automaticaly. This is a major misconseption, Micro-managment is anything which takes up the players mental energy. If units are in danger of running out of supplies then the player must constantly CHECK THEIR STATUS and deside when to draw each individual unit back towards friendly territory. Then the player will constantly recheck and deside if the units are ready to go back into enemy territory. That constitutes a HUGE amount of micro-managment, simpley because the supplies were delivered "automaticaly" dose not mean theirs no Micro-managment, the more checking and desison making the player has to do the more micro-managment their is. Under a centralized system the player just needs to know that their Consumption vs their Reserves and Production. Only when theirs an imbalace would further action be needed and it would be much faster to pick a few units to deactivate then to check statuses of possibly all your units.

 

[NikG]

Impaler[WrG] first of I dont think you know what I have proposed. But I will comment your post anyway.

Please reconsider your supply system, simply basing it off distance from friendly cities is not only unrealistic, it will ruin gameplay and cripple the AI.

No I will not recosider it, and it will not ruin gameplay, and no it would not cripple the AI. If you have looked at the SDK then you would know it will be possible to make it as efficient and streamlined as possible.

Things should be keept as simple as possible, the changes to resorce output is already a BIG change which will need a lot of AI adjustment. Player will grasp the concept quickly enough but the supply ideas ontop of this is a lot.

No it is not that big, and it is a MAJOR overhaul of the system, becuase it is unrealistic to have one oil well supplying an entire civilization and it army, only small AI adjustments is needed.

If you absolutly must have it make it a quantity or units that are "active" consume Oil, the player can set units to "inactive/reserves" to decreese consumption. Reserves cant move/attack and get -50% as mentioned earlier. They also cost less maintance. If desired you could charge double if a unit is outside its own territory.

No this will get extremely complicated to make, and would add alot of micromanagement.

That would be simple and straitforward enough for players to get without any heavy micro-managment like a distance based system would entail. It would also be about a 100 times simpler for the AI to deside what should be active/reserves. It also removes the nessesity of having every single unit have its own "supply" quantity which would be horrible to manage.

No becuase the you have to push a button to "make reserve" and to "wake up". That would require enormous micromanagment. And it would not be simpler for the AI.

Its also vastly more realistic, Naval units have been sailing around the world for hundreds of years, armies have operated thousands of miles from their homelands since the time of Alexander the Great. True their are situations ware armies were weakened due to lack of resorces (Romel in North Africa being a classic Example) but these were situations ware supplies were activly being cut off by enemy action, not simply "distance" from Germany.

It is true, and it will be possible for a unit to have a capacity of oil for example. And it will be used up when moving. The distance is more or less a cost for supplying the MODERN units. If you are 1000 miles from home it will cost oil to transport the oil to the unit that needs the oil, and so I got a knew idea thanks for that, but I might make some tweak to my model, but it isnt changing radically, unless someone comes up with so really good reasons why.

Lastly, if were going to have oil used to supply modern units then some equivilent is needed in earlier eras, Anchient Units would be Food based (all your Grains and Meats could be lumped together as Food or some thing along these lines like grain for Cavalry, meat for Infantry). Early Gunpowder units might need Saltpeter as their supply. In any case the supply resorce can be different then the build resorce even in early ages.

I have already thought about that, and might implement it, but I am still on the oil thing.

Lastly a strong market system needs to exist so you dont get resorce screwed, their should be some resorces avalible (at high price) even when no other player in the game is selling (think of it as smuggling).

That needs more consideration. However as it is now, you cannot build some modern units without oil. And I have a few ideas about this and if you have any please post them. But I dont really see why we need a strong market system. You have an oil bonus and you extract x amount of oil a turn, use y each turn becuase you are a modern civ, and when moving a modern units which needs oil you use z oil, this unit will get supplied automatically with w oil. After the turn is finished (without getting to technical) you have Oilnew = Oiloriginal + x - y - w(for each unit).
For each unit the amount of oil is: Oilnew = Oiloriginal - z + w

EDIT: Seems you and I were posting at the same time and had the same idea when it comes to Food and Saltpeter, ok well as for Micro-managment. You say your idea for distance resupply requires no Micro-managment because its dont automaticaly. This is a major misconseption, Micro-managment is anything which takes up the players mental energy. If units are in danger of running out of supplies then the player must constantly CHECK THEIR STATUS and deside when to draw each individual unit back towards friendly territory. Then the player will constantly recheck and deside if the units are ready to go back into enemy territory. That constitutes a HUGE amount of micro-managment, simpley because the supplies were delivered "automaticaly" dose not mean theirs no Micro-managment, the more checking and desison making the player has to do the more micro-managment their is. Under a centralized system the player just needs to know that their Consumption vs their Reserves and Production. Only when theirs an imbalace would further action be needed and it would be much faster to pick a few units to deactivate then to check statuses of possibly all your units.

Okay this I read last, so there are some abundant info here...
But the idea is not having a system which should keep the player occupied. The player should not think about the supply, because it happens automatically ... okay I seem that extreme players will look at this, but the idea is just, "Don't move to deep into enemy territory, or else you units will get reduced movement rates." The AI already dont move to deep into the another civs territory, and humans shouldnt think at the supply for each unit.

 

[Jouda]

You say your idea for distance resupply requires no Micro-managment because its dont automaticaly. This is a major misconseption, Micro-managment is anything which takes up the players mental energy. If units are in danger of running out of supplies then the player must constantly CHECK THEIR STATUS and deside when to draw each individual unit back towards friendly territory. Then the player will constantly recheck and deside if the units are ready to go back into enemy territory. That constitutes a HUGE amount of micro-managment, simpley because the supplies were delivered "automaticaly" dose not mean theirs no Micro-managment, the more checking and desison making the player has to do the more micro-managment their is. Under a centralized system the player just needs to know that their Consumption vs their Reserves and Production. Only when theirs an imbalace would further action be needed and it would be much faster to pick a few units to deactivate then to check statuses of possibly all your units.

I guess NikG doesn't want to have "local" pools for every single unit. All units that are situated at the same distance from home territory would have the same amount of fuel available so the player does not need to check every single unit separately but can see its status right away.

I have a proposal on how to avoid resource pools for every single unit but still beeing close to reality:
1/ units do consume oil (or/and food) only when moving
2/ units that require oil can move only within supply lines, units outside supply lines can move only to the extent of their movement rate, but only in the first turn! Next turn they become immobile and can only defend (with some penalty).
3/ units that do NOT need oil, can move freely even outside supply lines
4/ units outside supply lines (more than 1 tile) lose health, no matter how far from home territory they are

Now, what the heck are the supply lines?
1/ primarily roads (even in home territory - so that units can be cut off resources even in their own country)
2/ supply chain, which is in fact almost the same as a road, but all units have the ability of building it. It would take a few turns to build it, just like the roads (but not cumulative - fixed amount of turns independent on units building it - unlike workers). Supply chain is automatically destroyed when an enemy unit steps on it.

This feature given, early exploration would be very limited as unit would need to build supply chain first or else they would die.

 

[NikG]

Okay to clarify the ideas right now, I have:

An oil treasury like the gold treasury, we have right now.
The oil bonus resource, will give oil units and each turn , and it will be put into the oil treasury. For example if you have 3 oil wells which yield 100 oil/turn each, you get 300 oil units each turn.
Each unit have a oil capacity and an OilCostPerMovementPoint.
Each movement point costs OilCostPerMovementPoint which is deducted from its oil capacity.
Each turn every unit which needs oil will automatically get oil, which will be added to the oil capacity of the unit. Depending on various factors, such as the distance from the borders of the units owner, in enemy territory etc., the amount which will be added vary.
If a unit runs out of oil, because of the owner runs about of oil in the oil treasury or the unit get so deep into enemy territory that the amount it get is 0, the units will only be able to move 1 point at a time, and the units combat score is reduced to half.

Hope it clarifies it.

 

[NikG]

I guess NikG doesn't want to have "local" pools for every single unit. All units that are situated at the same distance from home territory would have the same amount of fuel available so the player does not need to check every single unit separately but can see its status right away.
...

Actually that is what I want. Local pools is added. However there is no really such thing as supply lines, everything is handled behind the screens, but yes it adds a new thing to check, but not more than you check the hitpoints status of a unit. Like you don't attack with an unit with low hitpoints, unless it is really needed or very beneficial, you shouldn't move an unit to far away into enemy territory or whatever. It should not be something to consider when at peace or moving within own territory, unless you are stupid enough to loss your oil wells.

 

[Jouda]

Actually that is what I want. Local pools is added. However there is no really such thing as supply lines, everything is handled behind the screens, but yes it adds a new thing to check, but not more than you check the hitpoints status of a unit. Like you don't attack with an unit with low hitpoints, unless it is really needed or very beneficial, you shouldn't move an unit to far away into enemy territory or whatever. It should not be something to consider when at peace or moving within own territory, unless you are stupid enough to loss your oil wells.

Well it is more complicated than I think it's necessary but as long as you are the one to create this mod it's up to you only. Just wanted to share my ideas.

What I don't like about your system is that units get resources automatically wherever they are. I think supply lines should be implemented somehow (my proposal is in my previous post).

 

[Padmewan]

NikG, I think your ideas are great; I would personally appreciate it if you would be a little friendlier if you are looking for feedback or help. Attacking people who have legitimate questions and who are interested in working with you doesn't seem like a good way to get us to want to help with or promote this project.

Your proposal is not that different from what I had proposed earlier, with the sole change being that you don't treat oil as a "yield."

Good luck with this project.

 

[NikG]

Well I am sorry to all, but it just seemed to me people were not reading the post and just wrote something. So sorry again, it wasnt my intention to be unfriendly. My native language is not english, so I have a hard time to determine if a particular sentence sounds less friendly than intented.

 

[Jouda]

Well I am sorry to all, but it just seemed to me people were not reading the post and just wrote something. So sorry again, it wasnt my intention to be unfriendly. My native language is not english, so I have a hard time to determine if a particular sentence sounds less friendly than intented.

Goddamit read what I have written!

I guess this sounds the same in all languages. But no hard feelings

 

[NikG]

I guess this sounds the same in all languages. But no hard feelings

Okay, I just got a little upset, because it really seemed that people just came with ideas outside the context of this SDK change. But okay doesnt matter anymore, if someone still has ideas (any, I wont get upset now )

(if any have been offending then I am sorry.)

 

[Vishaing]

Padweman mentioned (very briefly) a forth yield, and while reading the thread I had a beautiful idea for a forth yield that could apply to not one, not two, but ALL resources. Concentration. Basically, on its own this yield does nothing, but when applied to a tile with a resource on it, controls how much is extracted per turn and how long you can extract it from. From the introductory course I took on C++ a year ago I think it would be a simple matter to make a 'years mined' variable, increment it every turn, and every, I don't know, 100th turn have it decrease Concentration by 1 until Concentration was 0, at which point the resource is exhausted and no longer usable. This would however not remove the resource from the map, and then with further tech advances (discover new mining machinery) or a random event your miners might 'Find a new Vein of Iron' or something along that lines, which could increase the Concentration yield by a random amount, up to maybe 6 or something along those lines, I would advise against going higher than 6, but ultimately it depends only on what scale you might wish to use to turn ‘concentration’ into ‘oil per turn’ or some such like that.

This could also, if the Concentration can be modified in perhaps the World Builder, allow for even more realistic maps, especially world maps. After all, the soil in Europe is, generally speaking, more fertile than the soil in Africa, and currently this is modeled only by Africa's lack of food resources and being plains. With the ability to set the level of concentration we could make Africa or whatever landmass in a random map or whatever, have variable levels of ‘fertility’ as it might be. It would also be nice if we could make Concentration random initially, to allow for greater variety and the desire to gain 'high quality' resources.

For supply lines, I would suggest simply needing to have an open path between your units and your cities. This means that if you get a single unit, or even a stack completely surrounded by enemy units they will run out of supplies and likely be overwhelmed and slaughtered, thus making surrounding your opponent's forces a viable strategy for what I believe to be the first time in any cIV game, for a reason other than simply not letting them move. This would also encourage that people not go too far into enemy terrain, as it would become increasingly easier to be cut off from supplies, (essentially one of the many problems that faced Hitler’s forces in Russia, that and Generals January and February, and trying to fight a war on four fronts against three people simultaneously.)

 

[Padmewan]

NikG, no offense taken, just be a little more open to new ideas rather than assume that people are not reading or attacking you. Sometimes we are reading, but have an idea that may be a little different -- that's the whole point of having a public thread, right?

Basically, on its own this yield does nothing, but when applied to a tile with a resource on it, controls how much is extracted per turn and how long you can extract it from. ...This would however not remove the resource from the map, and then with further tech advances (discover new mining machinery) or a random event your miners might 'Find a new Vein of Iron' or something along that lines...

This is in line with what I've suggested re: "Proven Reserves." I'm not sure that this variable ought not be attached to the bonus itself, rather than to the tile -- after all, it is bonus- rather than tile-specific.

Civ3 vaguely implemented this by having resources disappear and reappear around the map. I would suggest that, if this were implemented, the bonus WOULD disappear upon "tapping out" that reserve, and that either a new technology makes more resources appear, or new resource automatically pop up somewhere else when one taps out (abstracting the idea of a technology advance). Often new reserves are not discovered in old mines but in new locations, e.g. the oil sands of Canada.

This could also, if the Concentration can be modified in perhaps the World Builder, allow for even more realistic maps, especially world maps. After all, the soil in Europe is, generally speaking, more fertile than the soil in Africa, and currently this is modeled only by Africa's lack of food resources and being plains.

Well, there is a difference between renewable and non-renewable resources. If you wanted to keep things simple, the above mechanism would only apply to non-renewable resources. If you want to make it more complex (and use Civ4 as a resource management sim), you could have renewable resources replenish at a certain rate, and then give players the choice to use an improvement that exploits that resource quickly but depletes it, or an improvement that exploits it slowly but sustainably. I imagine this would only be usable by human players unless serious AI coding was done...

 

[NikG]

Vishaing-> see that is a very nice adjustment regarding a 4th yield which in game terms is actually all resources combined into one. It could be implemented, but I first would like to see the ideas I have right now in action. If it turns out that this is good, then I may implement yours.

For you ideas on supply lines, I like it ... very much indeed, and it is much more simplictic compared to what I have in mind. However I feel that it will be an overhelming task to program the AI to understand how to encircle its opponents, but then again I might look into the AI units moving routine later, and determine if it could be done.

Thanks Vishaing for some nice ideas.

 

[Killamike718]

Hello, i really like some of these ideas, and i just wanted to see if this will possibly help you. I was thinking That maybe if you have one oil resouce at your disposal you should be only able to support 5 tanks or any oil useing unit. this idea came to me because i hated when the AI had like 80 more tanks than me while on one oil resouce available to him, while i had around20 tanks and about 7 oil resouces under my control. If you added a limit to unit useage with every oil resouce you were in control of, would greatly ad realism to CIV IV.

 

[NikG]

Killamike718 -> this is actually what it is going to be, to take your example, if the AI has 80 tanks and 1 oil resource and you have 20 tanks and 7 oil resources, you would have no problem with supplying your tanks, and they will function without problems. However the AI will have some problems, becuase 80 tanks take 4 times the amount of oil than 20 tanks, and so the AI will not be able to use some of his tanks, or put directly: He can you his tanks, but most of the will lack fuel and can only move slowly and in addition to his, the tanks lacking fuel will have their fighting capability crippled, 50% less combat strength.

 

[Killamike718]

OO im soo sorry. forgive me i only read the top of the first post sorry. Great idea by the way, more elaborate than mine.