New Unit: Bismark Class

[Adler17]

Okay, I was a bit too fast to write both ships could cripple the entire British fleet . Nevertheless Bismarck was finished by one or two lucky hit(s). First one the torpedo hit of the swordfish, second Rodney´s hit of the fire control. The first one caused the doom because Bismarck could not aviod the combat. The second one stopped an effectfull defense of the ship in her last fight. She might have sunk either but she was most probably not the only ship...
Nevertheless you admitted the British weren´t able to sink her with gunfire because of the structure. And yes her armour lacked on some stations, which were neccessary, but not critical. In her last combat no grenade destroyed a vital area of the ship. Indeed I made a mistake in saying the armoured belt wasn´t pernetrated. The armoured deck wasn´t pernetrated and all interior structure still operational. Only one hit could pernetrate the armoured belt, which was a hit by PoW in the first battle. Neverthless two BB fired at her for hours at clostest distance without damaging vital areas. Even the Bridge was intact afaik. If she was nearer to France the time would have been enough to send help of Luftwaffe bombers. She would have been heavilied damaged but still repairable in Brest. And 1942 not only 2 BB and on CA would have passed the Channel...
I do not think Bismarck was better than Yamato. No! But she was equal to Iowa. That´s why I also think Iowa had no chance in a fight against Yamato. The H 41 class might have been another caliber...
Where did you get the info Bismarck is an enlarged Bayern class and structural out of date ??? ??? ? That´s not true. She was designed completely new and even redesigned after the starting of the building.
Nevertheless I think she was the best ever built BB of the world, without Yamato.

Adler

 

[thestonesfan]

They were all colossal wastes of resources, if you ask me.

 

[Akula]

Nope not unless you think about the turret structure on the british warships, that coudn't effectively aim low enough to give Bismarck fatal underwater damage
Again it depends on what you call critical, I'd personally prefer to have such things as wireless communication
Yes i think we can agree that the british carrier air arm wasn't the best in the world at that time and they propably woudn't be able to stop any kind of air attack, but unfortionately for Bismarck se didn't make it within that range
Fighting ships like Iowa would have been extremely challenging, there are many that regard her as the best battleship ever, her firecontroll, speed and manouverability was simply unique, and the guns and armor wasn't bad either, she also had the best AA defence of the time but that propably won't affect 360mm hardened steel
Any warship fighting Iowa would proably want to get in close where their accuracy would be much higher, Iowa would propably hit Bismarck about 75% of the time at a range of 30.000m and the average spread at 25000 m would be less that the lenght of Bismarck
I didn't say Bismarck was an enlargened Bayern battleship
What I said was that the hull and belt armor distribution was practiaclly identical, and obsolete by the time of her completion

I actually don't like to compare Bismarck with Iowa as Iowa was somewhat later in the war and thus had the experience of the past actions incorporated, thus if you just think about it it should be somewhat supperior, Bismarck is a good ship but comparing it to the zenith of the battleship devellopment isn't that fair for anyone and both Yamato and iowa represents that, on the other hand if you take what she could be expected to fight in the atlantic at that time she would be capable enough although she might have had a harder time with KGW or Nelson ships (Disregard the PoW engagement as that ship wasn't seaworthy at the time and carried gun technitions into the battle actually turret X failed during the battle)

I don't think you should count on the H class beign that much better than Bismarck (If you take the realistic consepts not that rediculess 110.000 ton ship with 800mm guns )

You can argue a lot about Lütjens desissions, there has been written many books about that and admiral Holland, my personal oppinion is that he was a in desisive fool that didn't take the chances when they where there but steamed on with a damaged battleship right into the main consentration of the Royal Navy, if he had chased Down PoW and returned to germany he'd have saved the hip (for the time beign) and given the british a great morale blow Germany had just as good repair fasilites as France and thus he didn't have to make this gauntlet run with a damaged ship
But instead he exchanged the best ship the Kriegsmarine had for an old BC
Yes they where a waste of resources but isn't all weapons that when you think about it?
If there wasn't any weapons then there woudn't be a need for any weapons (large military weapons that is)

 

[MarineCorps]

Your not helping. trust me Wyrm I feel the same way.

 

[Adler17]

Okay, if there are´nt any other new details I think we should stop this discussion now. The only new aspect I want to add is I read Ballard´s book about finding the Bismarck. He doesn´t give any hard details whether the Bismarck was the best ship or not. He only appoints the wreck is nearly intact. Okay intact is a bad word, but I want to point out the damages are far less then expected. He only says the ship was of very good quality and was most probably sunk by her crew (all German survivors said 10 minutes before the torpedoes hit the ship the bombs were detonating to scuttle the ship). The torpedoes might fasten this but were not causal.
Nevertheless Lütjens was the wrong man. Viceadmiral Ciliax were a far better choice. The battle of the denmark strait is not very good to judge about the qualities of this ship. As well as the final battle. And since her sister Tirpitz wasn´t in ship to ship combat we can only speculate. But that´s the most fascinating in history. In her short time many things happened, which were unexpectable. Stupidity and bravery were, are and will ever be factors, which will change history.
As the last sentence we should remember a ship which stands on the bottom of the sea with many guns seems to be ready for the final battle and en route to a friendly port, which she will never reach, and the crew of the Hood and the Bismarck who gave their lives for her countries.

Adler

 

[gorn]

Just an idea, but wouldn't it be better to run this kind of discussion in another thread? Something like "Debate History," or such?

I say this only because it's pretty disheartening to check out a thread like this looking for something like an update or pedia icons or whatever ... and instead find nothing.

 

[Adler17]

Superb! When do you release it???

Adler

 

[TVA22]

Wow!! Indeed, when can you release some ships Wyrm? We're badly in need of more ww1/ww2 ships, and yours look fantastic!

 

[TVA22]

I see... well take your time, and I'm sure it'll be excellent

 

[D.Durand]

Lovely ship ! I use it !


Oh, and...

Bismarck :
Build the 1 jul 1936
Launch the 14 feb 1939
In operations the 24 aug 1940

Iowa (Missouri class)
Build the 6 jan 1941
Launch the 29 jan 1944
In operations the 11 jun 1944

Compare the same thing


In my mod, i use the Bismarck as a german flavor BB, and the Iowa as an advanced BB with the need of one tech after the others BB (It's for the Iroquois and the Sioux civ).



P.S. Well, and i dream for a Littorio or a Richelieu BB (think France can't build or *search* for new BB in the war), or for Egyptian/babylonian/roman flavor BB





Wooops, i dont' see the year of this post. Sorry

 

[akinkhoo]

why is the Iowa a Missouri class? ship class takes the 1st ship which should be Iowa not Missouri even when it became the flagship. or we will need to keep renaming every ship classes as new ship are built!

Iowa (Iowa class)
Missouri (Iowa class)
no?

 

[warmwaffles]

Thats funny TVA you tried linking the GIF animation from your hard drive LOL thats funny a hell...hahahha you just made my day...BTW nice unit....looks like you just took the stock battleship and added longer barrels and deleted one

 

[Goldflash]

...This was one of the very very very first units made for Civ 3.. so.. don't make fun of it.

 

[Tank_Guy#3]

The death is very similar to the actual death of the ship, from a painting and a few pics I've seen over the years. Well done!