Newbie needs tactical advice

[Sir_Lancelot]

Standard edition, 1.29f.

I don't know if anyone will look at this (if I manage to upload the save file).
Zulu, regent level, 1050 AD

AI players on my continent: Iroquois, Persia, Aztec and Babylon.
AI players on other islands/continents (unknown to my neighbors): Russia, Greece, France, England and Germany.

Some strategy
My city in the north-east, Tamuin, is a city I captured and plan to disband, hence the worker build for reducing foreign population. I'll use Zulu workers to settle there, so I can disband without getting a bad name. Same for Nineveh in the south.

The Aztec city Tlacopan right outside my borders in the north, I will maybe take it when I (soon) get musketmen. It'll be heavily corrupted but the location is strategic.
I have razed one city so far, I rather not burn down more.

My neighbors are spamming my back gardens with settlers (even at war time!) and I prefer to stay at war with them so I can prevent new cities where I plan to grow, and get free slaves... I'll make peace when I got all the land I want inside my borders.

Trading tactics
My new found friends (except Germany) are several techs ahead. I'm not sure how to get the most out of them as cheap as possible. Right now only Russia and France have Education, next turn Greece and England will also have it.
I have not traded my maps or any communications and I know this is a powerful tool. But I think I should wait until I am at peace with everyone? So I can trade with everyone at once.
If I sell communications to my friends, will I be able to sell communications to my enemy neighbors later? I guess not, because if Russia knows how to get in touch with the Persiand, then, well - exactly.


In what city should I build the Forbidden Palace?

 

[Sir_Lancelot]

Another question is when is it time to move from monarchy to republic? I don't know if I can afford 4 turns of anarchy now. Republic isn't that much superior to monarchy?
Wish I had communism because I hardly can build anything in my very corrupted outposts.

 

[Theryman]

I'm no expert at this game, but one thing I did notice was this:

A. You are at war with almost every other civ on your continent.
B. You are building cathedrals in almost every city.
...

You should not be making any buildings in any of your cities during war time. You have to keep producing military units until you crush them. Don't give in to building happinness enhancers unless WW runs rampant.

 

[Sir_Lancelot]

I'm no expert at this game, but one thing I did notice was this:

A. You are at war with almost every other civ on your continent.
B. You are building cathedrals in almost every city.
...

You should not be making any buildings in any of your cities during war time. You have to keep producing military units until you crush them. Don't give in to building happinness enhancers unless WW runs rampant.

Thank you for the input.

I'm actually at war with all the four other civs on my continent. The reason is I expanded too slow and suddenly found a lot of new cities around me. A large area around me was jungle and I hesitated with building there. I didn't expect the others to build a bunch of struggling cities deep in the jungle so soon, but they did. The jungle (north and west of my capital) reached almost to the capital, so I've cleared a lot now.

The Persians recently got knights so I must be a little careful now. Until now I have not feared my enemies. Sun Tzu's Art of War give me barracks and my units fully heal between the attacks.

Why I build cathedrals in my large cities. I just built the Sistine Chapel (with a Great Leader). The largest cities need some entertainment and with the Sistine Chapel my cathedrals will keep my cities happy for centuries. I think I got enough units and I don't got much else to build. Later those cities will be busy building universities and banks, with cathedrals I'll not have to use clowns or the lux slider. If I research education (or trade it) before the cathedrals are completed, I can switch to universities.

But I agree if I want to conquer a lot of cities then I need more units. Maybe this is what I should do. But since the map is so huge and the opponents so many, I don't see conquest victory as an option. And more captured cities far away will be over-corrupted.
My plan is to capture just one or two more cities, but I will think it over again.

I'm building a new palace. It was originally a pre-build to a cathedral but it turned out that a cathedral would have wasted recources. I'm gambling and pre-building a great wonder.

Where should I build the Forbidden Palace? I believe the city now building a palace is too close to the capital for the FP.

 

[drakdan]

1.) Play a game without using any cathedrals at all, and you will realize just how useless they are. Sistine's Chapel used to be my favorite wonder until I did that.
2.) Being at war with 4 civs is too much. Limit it to 1-2 if you can.
3.) It's better to use the luxury slider than cathedrals.
4.) Since you're either in PTW or Vanilla, placement of the FP is important. I'd prefer to place it rather far from my capital in an area where there is a ring of towns nearby.
5.) Monarchy is horrible compared to republic. The research rate is much slower, the war weariness can be managed, and the unit support is only slightly better than Republic's. Once you get size 7 cities and marketplaces, you'll have no trouble maintaining wars in Republic. Unless you piss off the four people on your continent.

 

[Sir_Lancelot]

Sure I can live without cathedrals or colosseums. But raising the luxury means less funds for research.

I have only built one of my wonders the ordinary way. The rest is built by GL's. And I can thank my war for them. Having a steady stream of weak enemy units against me have helped me much. Now they are sending stronger units but I plan to make peace with at least three of my enemies soon. But first I need to expand my borders some.

I didn't know the monarchy was so much worse than the republic. I think about 70 - 75 % of my cities is size 7 or larger.

 

[Theryman]

Don't you only get the unit support in republic if you have C3C? I thought Vanilla was completely supportless.

I recommend taking out the Babs to your south. That way, you will not assailed from two sides.

 

[Abegweit]

All in all, this is a pretty good game. You should have no problem winning it. Some comments:

1. You are not far behind the other continent. Only Education and a couple of optionals (no one is building Bach or Cops). Should be easy to make up the deficit.

2. Republic gives about 30-40% more gold than Monarchy. 'Nuff said. You can afford to give 10% to luxes and still come out ahead.

3. Nice development of your cities.

4. Plenty of workers! That's why the cities are in good shape.

5. Suicide galleys for contact? Excellent.

5. It doesn't hurt to trade your map. The AI can't do anything with it until ocean travel. It does not suicide.

6. You are quite right not to trade contacts, though. Don't do it until they are about to meet. You can act as tech broker between the two continents. This can be very profitable.

7. Caths are useless. Build markets for happiness and get luxes. Since you have caths well underway. trade for Education and get those universities up. Alex, for example, will give it to you for 25gpt + world map. If you are right that the other civs will have it nextturn, then wait so the cost will come down.

8. When you do trade maps and contacts, make sure you give it to everyone. They will trade it amongst themselves if you don't.

9. Your core cities are far too far apart. This is OK out in the boonies but your core should be closer. You should plan on each city getting 12 squares to work. They can't grow larger until hospitals, which is 2/3rds of the way through the game and there are many disadvantages to spreading out. Greater corruption. Harder to defend. Etc.

10. You have far too many pikes. The best defence is a good offence. You shouldn't be building defensive units at all. Perhaps one or two but even those should be used to protect your attackers, not to sit idly in cities.

11. Wars should be short and focussed. Decide your objective, concentrate on achieving it, then pick up goodies in the peace. Rinse and repeat. You should not be at war with four civs at once. Every one of them is ready to make concessions for peace. Choose a couple and take them up on it.

12. Keep expanding until every available piece of land is taken. Jungle is good land. It just takes plenty of workers to discover its potential.

13. Republic gives about 30-40% more gold than Monarchy. 'Nuff said.

14. "I'm gambling and pre-building a great wonder". OK. Both Bach and Cop are just one step past Education.

 

[Abegweit]

Don't you only get the unit support in republic if you have C3C? I thought Vanilla was completely supportless.

You are right. Republic was already overpowered in vanilla, so they made it even stronger in C3C.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

What win condition are you striving for? This may be the thing you have to figure out first, because it drives every decision.

Civ III is a strategy game - having an end objective is something that isn't really needed at chieftain - my first game there, I just played until I was bored, then I took over the world. But at regent or above, you really can't do that. You need a goal.

 

[Lord Emsworth]

Standard edition, 1.29f.

I don't know if anyone will look at this (if I manage to upload the save file).
Zulu, regent level, 1050 AD

AI players on my continent: Iroquois, Persia, Aztec and Babylon.
AI players on other islands/continents (unknown to my neighbors): Russia, Greece, France, England and Germany.

Some strategy
My city in the north-east, Tamuin, is a city I captured and plan to disband, hence the worker build for reducing foreign population. I'll use Zulu workers to settle there, so I can disband without getting a bad name. Same for Nineveh in the south.

I wouldn't disband the city at all. If you fear that Tamuin might flip back to the Aztecs, well, it will not flip back if you destroy the Aztecs. I would suggest doing so.

The Aztec city Tlacopan right outside my borders in the north, I will maybe take it when I (soon) get musketmen. It'll be heavily corrupted but the location is strategic.
I have razed one city so far, I rather not burn down more.

I agree that Tlacopan is in a somewhat strategic position. It will open up a route straight into the heart of the Aztec territory. I suggest you take it and road the tile between Zunguin and Tlacopan. Now you have (a) Silks hooked up and (b) a route to attack Aztekistan.

But why wait for Muskets? They will not add anything to the war at all. What you need is Knights! Lots and lots of them.

My neighbors are spamming my back gardens with settlers (even at war time!) and I prefer to stay at war with them so I can prevent new cities where I plan to grow, and get free slaves... I'll make peace when I got all the land I want inside my borders.

You should grab all of Aztekistan.

Trading tactics
My new found friends (except Germany) are several techs ahead. I'm not sure how to get the most out of them as cheap as possible. Right now only Russia and France have Education, next turn Greece and England will also have it.
I have not traded my maps or any communications and I know this is a powerful tool. But I think I should wait until I am at peace with everyone? So I can trade with everyone at once.
If I sell communications to my friends, will I be able to sell communications to my enemy neighbors later? I guess not, because if Russia knows how to get in touch with the Persiand, then, well - exactly.

It is a tricky situation. One poster in this thread suggested you should not trade away contacts which is certainly something to consider, because it enables you to play tech broker quite effectively. But on the other hand, it is a risky gamble. They might make contact anytime - the Iroquois have the Great Lighthouse, Astronomy is not far - and then you are left with nearly nothing to trade. So, I would think you should cash in those contacs now.

I also would suggest making peace with Persia. Then you can trade very effectively. Here is what I did:

1st Trade:

Persia gives:
• Peace
• Chivalry
• Gunpowder

We give:
• Peace
• 54 Gold​

2nd Trade:

Greece gives:
• Education

We give:
• Gunpowder
• 9 Gold​

3rd Trade (This one is a monster):

Persia gives:
• Alliance vs Iroquois
• Chemistry
• Spices
• 93 Gold
• World Map

We give:
• Alliance vs Iroquois
• Education
• Contact with Greece
• Contact with England
• Contact with Germany
• Contact with Russia
• Contact with France
• Dyes
• Ivory
• World Map​

4th Trade:

England gives:
• The Republic
• World Map

We give:
• Education​

5th Trade:

Russia gives:
• 37 Gold
• World Map

We give:
• Contact with Iroquois
• Contact with Actecs
• Contact with Babylonians​

6th Trade:

Greece gives:
• 17 Gold
• World Map

We give:
• Contact with Iroquois
• Contact with Actecs
• Contact with Babylonians​

7th Trade:

France gives:
• 12 Gold
• World Map

We give:
• Contact with Iroquois
• Contact with Actecs
• Contact with Babylonians​

Summary:
• You make peace with Persia, and are now allied with them against the Iroquois.
• You get all of the lump sum gold that is 'out there,' except that from your enemies (Iroquois, Aztects, Babylon)
• You get Gunpowder, The Republic, Chivalry, Education and Chemistry.
• You have an additional luxury, spices, at least as long as Persia and Aztects are at peace.
• A whole lot of fog is removed from the world map.
• The Civs know each other.

One important note, is that your lux trading with Persia is only possible because Persia can trade though Aztec coastal tiles apparently.

In what city should I build the Forbidden Palace?

Texcoco or Teotihuacan look promising to me. Of course you will have to capture them first and use a leader to rush the FP.


OK, here of what you should do altogether IMO:
• Trade as I suggested, it will net you Chivalry
• Use the worker stack west of Zunguin to road the tile north of the city. The one that is now occupied by your army. Do it now. Have them stop whatever they are doing, and get the road up asap.
• Capture Tlacopan. In addition to the road that I suggested above, this will give you an attack route to the Aztec main cities and hook up silks.
• Switch all Cathredral builds to Knights. I know it will hurt that you lose 50 shields here and 60 shields there. But oh well, let it be so. You need attackers.
• Sell those temples and colloseums. Luxuries in combination with markets rule. With those Persian spices and the silks that you are about to hook up you will have 5 luxuries over all. If necessary use the lux slider.
• Check your large cities for granaries. Some cities are grown out, i.e. size 12, or size 11 with only a few more turn to go. Sell the granaries in those cities. Examples of what I am talking about are Zimbabwe, Swazi, Intombe.
• Build knights.
• Build knights.
• Do not bother with building defenders. Build knights.
• Upgrade any veteran horses to knights. The upgrade from pikes to muskets can wait.
• Make your military more cost effective, you don't need that many defenders at all. (I usually have at that stage of the game only a handful of defenders if at all, and mainly knights)
• Conquer and destroy the Aztecs and move your second core (Forbidden Palace) into their territory. This war has priority obviously.
• The Babylonians can wait. Simply kill what they throw at you and do not bother to capture their cities. It makes for great leader fishing.
• Government. Republic sure rocks - hard. But ... I do not know what happened in your war with the Aztecs, Babylonians and Iroquois in the past, but from the type of units that you have (lots of defenders) I have the hunch that you are already full of war wearyness. So, stay in Monarchy as you can neither afford the WW nor an anarchy period right now.
• I would also suggest building a few more cities in your core. Size 12 is all that you need. Even later on in the Industrial and Modern ages.
• Your Palace prebuild should go into a wonder. Ideally Smiths.

 

[Lord Emsworth]

A slight correction to the above:
In the third trade you don't have to give the Persians two luxes. One is enough.

Oh and I played your game for a few turn. If you want to have a look, a save is attached.

Currently researching Music Theory in order to build JS Bach Cath in Swazi. The tech should be available in 3-5 turns depending on how you put the slider. The big church should be up in 9-10 turns.

In Zunguin there is a Gret Leader waiting to rush the FP in Texcoco which is now Zulu.

You have 19 knights overall, many of which are ready to conquer the rest of the aztec empire.

 

[Sir_Lancelot]

Don't you only get the unit support in republic if you have C3C? I thought Vanilla was completely supportless.

I recommend taking out the Babs to your south. That way, you will not assailed from two sides.

I guess I'm too kind to take out the Babs completely? I've taken out many of their cities and pillaged 90% of their infrastructure. I almost think I've done enough bad things to them. lol

 

[Sir_Lancelot]

What win condition are you striving for? This may be the thing you have to figure out first, because it drives every decision.

Civ III is a strategy game - having an end objective is something that isn't really needed at chieftain - my first game there, I just played until I was bored, then I took over the world. But at regent or above, you really can't do that. You need a goal.

I don't know what kind of victory I'm going for. This is my second game. The last one I won by some sort of election (not the UN).

In my past Civ games (Civ1 and CTP), I always won by space race or alien cloning.

In this particular game I hold all options open, except conquest. This means victory by space race, diplomacy or cultural victory. And maybe some condition I forgot.

I guess playing is a goal in itself.

 

[Sir_Lancelot]

Thank you Lord Emsworth

So you suggest capturing a Az city and building the FP there. I'll have to look at that. I only considered one of my cities in the south-east. It's far from the capital but those towns are spread around because of the terrain and ocean.

I'll look at your advice when I play next time

 

[Sir_Lancelot]

9. Your core cities are far too far apart. This is OK out in the boonies but your core should be closer. You should plan on each city getting 12 squares to work. They can't grow larger until hospitals, which is 2/3rds of the way through the game and there are many disadvantages to spreading out. Greater corruption. Harder to defend. Etc.

I think my first ring is not too far apart? The distance is 4. My second ring (I actually don't have more rings than the inner one) is maybe too far apart.

I found it difficult to place the cities on this map because of mountains and goodies. But my first 5 cities is in a perfect ring and I hope it saved me alot of corruption.

 

[Sir_Lancelot]

• Government. Republic sure rocks - hard. But ... I do not know what happened in your war with the Aztecs, Babylonians and Iroquois in the past, but from the type of units that you have (lots of defenders) I have the hunch that you are already full of war wearyness. So, stay in Monarchy as you can neither afford the WW nor an anarchy period right now.

The wars
I have had a low intensive war for a few centuries. I have not lost many units but some. I guess I win 4 out of 5 battles.
I provoked the Babs to declare on me, the other 3 wars I declared myself. I did it to keep them from settling in the jungle near my core, and it have given me dozens of slaves.

They send units and attack my cities and die. And I attack their units in my territory. I have not been fighting on their land.

Not sure how this kind of war affect the happiness, but I've not had big problems. I read in the manual that my people are more forgiving if my units is not fighting on foreign soil.

• I would also suggest building a few more cities in your core. Size 12 is all that you need. Even later on in the Industrial and Modern ages.

You think? Ok, I'll look at the possibility.

• Your Palace prebuild should go into a wonder. Ideally Smiths.

Smith's Trading is good, but I think the Copernicus is more valuable. I'm wrong?

 

[Theryman]

I guess I'm too kind to take out the Babs completely? I've taken out many of their cities and pillaged 90% of their infrastructure. I almost think I've done enough bad things to them. lol

I was just about to ask if you'd pillaged them or if they just never bothered to infastructure! Perfect timeing.

 

[Theryman]

They send units and attack my cities and die. And I attack their units in my territory. I have not been fighting on their land.

Not sure how this kind of war affect the happiness, but I've not had big problems. I read in the manual that my people are more forgiving if my units is not fighting on foreign soil.

I'm pretty sure it is the other way around. They are more forgiving if th war is far, far way, I think. Although if you are whipping the enenmy left and right, it should not really matter.

 

[Lord Emsworth]

The wars
I have had a low intensive war for a few centuries. I have not lost many units but some. I guess I win 4 out of 5 battles.
I provoked the Babs to declare on me, the other 3 wars I declared myself. I did it to keep them from settling in the jungle near my core, and it have given me dozens of slaves.

They send units and attack my cities and die. And I attack their units in my territory. I have not been fighting on their land.

Not sure how this kind of war affect the happiness, but I've not had big problems. I read in the manual that my people are more forgiving if my units is not fighting on foreign soil.

Every time one of your units is attacked, even if you win the battle, you collect two WW points. Now if I look at the number of elite pikemen that I see in your military I know that you have collected a lot of WW already.

Now as long as you are in Monarchy you are not affected at all by war wearyness (war happyness would affect you though). Should you switch to republic all the points that you collected will hit you and very, very likely cause unhappyness.

To get an idea of what causes ww and what not, just read this war academy article and the accompanying thread.

But by and large it is best if it is you who attacks. If they send troops at you, actively pick them off with good attackers. Use fast attackers to kill and head back to safety.

You think? Ok, I'll look at the possibility.

It is far easier to provide happyness for size 12 cities than it is for size 20. 5-6 luxuries and a market solve nearly all your happyness problems, if you have 7-8 you are king.

That means you don't have to build hospitals, temples, cathedrals, colloseums. And neither do you have to pay for them. All that you need is a market. If you also have Smith's you have a one time 100 shield investment and you are done happyness wise.

If you also don't build factories in your size 12 cities, you won't ever get pollution (except from Research labs, but they are late anyway).

And you make better use of the land earlier of course.

Smith's Trading is good, but I think the Copernicus is more valuable. I'm wrong?

There might be special cases where Copernicus is more profitable than Smith's, but by and large I would say that Smith's is better. It pays maintenance for all markets, banks, harbours and airports. If you have or plan to have a good number of these improvements you are better of with the Trading Co.

Anyway, in the save that I posted above, I became untrue to my own suggestion and am heading for J. S. Bach's