Newbie to Civ 3. Numerous Questions for perfecting early game play

[tjs282]

So I tried peace gained ceremonial burial and then redeclared war on them. I am trying to figure out diplomacy, war, unit experience etc.

If you make a (20T) peace deal, and then immediately break it, you destroy your trade-rep for the rest of the game.

While you might be able to get away with doing this at Regent/Monarch, at higher levels you will likely want/need to be able to continue to do deals for resources, techs and alliances much further into the game. So be careful.

Maybe I expected too many elites and possibly MGL by this time. What I find funny is sometimes 3 warriors and 1 archer will not even make a dent on their spearman.

Well, no: Spears are D=2 to start with, and if fortified in a towns are actually pretty tough: you would need a huge stack of A=1 Warriors to be sure of killing them.

Far better to keep your Warriors back home to keep the peace/ take out the AI's incoming D=1 Archers, and use your A=2 Archers against the AI's Spears in towns.

But even then, you'll still need to bring ~5 Archers per town, to be reasonably sure of taking out the AI's (default) 2 Spears in one turn (because if you don't kill both and take the town, the AI will likely whip-rush another Spear over the interturn).

If lack of resources means that all you can build is Archer + Spears, then adding some Cats (Mathematics) to your attack-stack is probably a good move.

I know to wait for horsemen and knights but I have no horses or iron nearby!

That's what Archers + Cats are for...

 

[ArenE]

Oops again forgot to upload the saves.

 

[Aabraxan]

I had a little time before work, so I took a look at your saves. Overall, you're doing fine and this is still winnable. Here are the notes I made:

4000 BC:
Fresh water – check
Bonus grassland – check
Hills – check
Kind of middle-ish north to south (look at the minimap), so you could expand in any direction, as far as I can see.

This is a winnable start.

Here's how I'd have started: Move settler 1W to get off the tobacco. It’s 2 gold now, so roading it won’t get me an extra gold until I get out of despo. Mine the tobacco first (4 turns), and then road. The road may not get me a gold now, but it will still provide movement and the gold will come eventually. Otherwise, worker will have to spend a movement getting off the tile and another getting back on. (Please bear in mind that I do not move my initial settler unless I have a pretty good reason. Getting off the tobacco for improved gold off that tile was a pretty good reason. I frequently just settle in place.)

Next turn, found Aabraxa as my capital. This pops the hut, giving me a map of the region. Incense spotted. Start warrior. Wheat and hills for a possible settler factory to the east. I see what looks like shoreline to the west, greenery to the north and desert & flood plains to the SE. In short, I’ll be looking to expand in all directions, with SE being lowest priority. West gets me a shoreline for suicide boats, but that’s not all that important yet. Going E for the settler factory is big. If I can get that tuned, we’re golden at this level.

3000 BC:

1 Town (Beijing), size 1, and one settler by the wheat. Settler by the wheat is good, but I think you started building settlers too early.

No Iron Working or Wheel, so we can’t see resources yet. I’d have let Beijing grow and built something like 1 warrior for exploring and a couple of archers, then pushed out a settler at size 4 or 5.

You’ve got 2 regular warriors prepared to attack Opporto. Frankly, not good odds. Warriors are 1.1.1, spears are 1.2.1 and that spear is getting ready to fortify, which gives him a boost. Opporto is also on a hill, so another boost to defense. IOW, 2 regular warriors are likely to die.

Portugal refuses to talk.

On to the 1000 BC save:

5 towns. Much better. Stop with the temple in Beijing unless you’re pre-building something. If you want conquest, you don’t need any temples. They do more harm than good, IMHO. Check for a swap to archer, would cost 6 lost shields.

Too many granaries going on, too. If you can do it without losing too many shields, swap to barracks. It's nice to have a handful of granaries, but unless you have The Pyramids, you don't need them in every town.

Shanghai is rioting, but it looks like you’ve adjusted for that. Do you have the mood badges (popheads) mods installed? They’ll help you watch for unhappy citizens. At Monarch, you get 2 content citizens before #3 is born unhappy. At Emp, you get 1.

You have IW and Wheel. Ctrl+Shift+M to look at a clean map. There are horses NNE of Beijing. I also see two sources of iron. One in Hittite territory, one in Portugal’s.

I shut off research to get a positive cash flow. I did this just to check your reputation. If you’re in negative gpt, the AI will not accept an offer of gpt, regardless of rep (I think). So, now that we have positive gpt, let’s go talk to the neighbors and see how your rep is doing.

Henry will trade you HBR for CoL + 1 gpt. Your trade reputation is intact!

Murs will give you HBR + Mysticism + 20 gold for peace!

Suggestions: Send the worker on the hill (who hasn’t moved yet) to hook up the horses ASAP. Switch the temple to something useful. Even having an archer on the next turn at a loss of 6 shields beats having a temple 5 turns from now. Take the deal with Mursillis and and investigate trade opportunities. Start building horses in towns with raxes. Go kill the barbs and get some promotions. (You can’t get MGLs from them, though.) I’d be looking hard at the Hittites, because they have both iron and wines, neither of which you have. Portugal only has iron. Once you have the barbs to the west cleared, put down a coastal town and build a boat or two. Go looking for the other continent(s). You will occasionally lose a boat doing this, but it can open up great trading opportunities, and let's you control the research speed to some degree. Look for techs on one continent to broker to the other while you're the only one who has contact with both continents.

As I said, you’re doing fine. This is totally winnable. You haven’t busted your trade rep. Your city placement looks pretty good. Could be tighter, but when you get those cities to the 7+ size, you won’t have many dead (unusable) tiles. So go forth and conquer.

 

[justanick]

Since I was militaristic I thought with bunch of warrior I would be able to keep them from expanding too close to me. So I destroyed 1 of their cities and made peace.

Well, that is something you should not do. Avoid small scale wars. If you go to war, then go to war for real.

Warriors make semi decent defenders, but for attacking you need archers.

Then Hittites placed a city 1W of spices (Nanking), demanded 10 gold and when I declined promptly declared war on me.

This tells you that you should not decline tribute. Pay tribute and AI will be happy.

Also it is important to have enough settlers to capture territory before someone else does it.

There are of course instances where it makes sense to let AI settle while you prepare for war. But that is a bit more tricky. If you are able to take land by just using settlers this is the way to go.

Maybe I expected too many elites and possibly MGL by this time.

MGLs in an early war are somewhat unlikely because the scale of the war is still way to small. If you have become a developed republic you are more morely to increase the scale of the war so far that you get enough promotions to Elite and Elite*. But if you are a developed republic you may as well research military tradition and hence use cavalry. That way the units promoted are stronger in the first place. Elite-units of older models are less useful.

If you like Industrious (which I also do), you would probably really like the Mayans, who are also Agricultural. Early expansion tends to be much easier.

Indeed. There is a bit of catch with the UU. It can make sense to ignore it for the better part. Trying to utilize the enslave-ability can divert resources and attention that are needed for more important tasks.

 

[ArenE]

Ctrl+Shift+M to look at a clean map. There are horses NNE of Beijing. I also see two sources of iron. One in Hittite territory, one in Portugal’s.

You are absolutely right. I did miss spotting the horses (don't know how I missed it)

Did not know about clean Map! Very helpful. Where do I find the popheads mod? Does it come with instructions? Are there other useful Mods that you guys recommend?

If you want conquest, you don’t need any temples.

As for the temple I was not going to build it but was trying to keep shields from forest cut which I was hoping for transfer to Nanking (It went to Beijing). I will stop with granaries and build barracks

Move settler 1W to get off the tobacco.

You can settle on bonus-resources giving commerce- and/or shield-bonuses, it's really only food-bonuses you want to avoid whenever possible.

I have some confusion. I had decided to settle on Tobacco after reading this earlier posts. Did I misunderstand something?

Again Thank you very much. I will learn to play this game better.

Maybe I should restart the same map from scratch and follow the advice given and see how much better I can do for practice. I know it is cheating but I am currently only trying to learn so I know I will enjoy the restart.

 

[WeirdoJoker]

There is a bit of catch with the [Mayan] UU. It can make sense to ignore it for the better part. Trying to utilize the enslave-ability can divert resources and attention that are needed for more important tasks.

I did not realize Javelin Throwers had the enslave ability. I so rarely get involved in early wars that I've never seen it.

... was trying to keep shields from forest cut which I was hoping for transfer to Nanking (It went to Beijing).

... which brings a question to mind: how is it determined which town gets the shields from a cut forest?

 

[tjs282]

Where do I find the popheads mod? Does it come with instructions? Are there other useful Mods that you guys recommend?

The popheads modpack I use came from CFC-user @Puppeteer, and you can find it via his profile page (I think his signature has a link as well).

He provides a YouTube video showing how to install it, but basically all you have to do is drop the modded smallheads.pcx file into the appropriate folder in your installation's ..[CivIII]/Conquests/Art/ folder: you can either backup the existing file in that folder, or simply over-write it.

His modpack also includes heads for all the Firaxis Conquests, which go in the relevant ..[CivIII]/Conquests/Conquests/[Scenario]/Art/ folder(s).

I also use @Sn00py's terrain-mod. If you have Civ3 Complete, you should already have the necessary files installed by default, in your 'Scenarios' folder. @Ares de Borg's terrain is also really nice.

Some of @Pounder's terrain-mods are an improvement over the Firaxis versions as well: I think I'm using his Rails, possibly also his Marshes.

I have some confusion. I had decided to settle on Tobacco after reading this earlier posts. Did I misunderstand something?

No, that's fine. Tobacco only provides a Commerce-bonus, and (I'm pretty sure that) you'd still get that — although you might have to wait until you're out of Despotism, or until the town grows to Pop7.

... which brings a question to mind: how is it determined which town gets the shields from a cut forest?

First, imagine a BFC around the Forest tile.

Then, spiral clockwise outwards from the Forest tile, starting on the tile to the NE of the Forest:

The first city encountered on the spiral which is NOT building a Wonder or Wealth, gets the chop-shields.

 

[WeirdoJoker]

First, imagine a BFC around the Forest tile.

Then, spiral clockwise outwards from the Forest tile, starting on the tile to the NE of the Forest:

View attachment 562144

The first city encountered on the spiral which is NOT building a Wonder or Wealth, gets the chop-shields.

That seems like a weird way to do it, but thanks for the explanation.

 

[ArenE]

That seems like a weird way to do it, but thanks for the explanation.

Agreed on both counts.

I was planning to try Mayans on Monarch after I play a game or 2 with China. Thank you for the update.

The popheads modpack I use came from CFC-user @Puppeteer, and you can find it via his profile page (I think his signature has a link as well).

He provides a YouTube video showing how to install it, but basically all you have to do is drop the modded smallheads.pcx file into the appropriate folder in your installation's ..[CivIII]/Conquests/Art/ folder: you can either backup the existing file in that folder, or simply over-write it.

His modpack also includes heads for all the Firaxis Conquests, which go in the relevant ..[CivIII]/Conquests/Conquests/[Scenario]/Art/ folder(s).

I also use @Sn00py's terrain-mod. If you have Civ3 Complete, you should already have the necessary files installed by default, in your 'Scenarios' folder. @Ares de Borg's terrain is also really nice.

Some of @Pounder's terrain-mods are an improvement over the Firaxis versions as well: I think I'm using his Rails, possibly also his Marshes.
No, that's fine. Tobacco only provides a Commerce-bonus, and (I'm pretty sure that) you'd still get that — although you might have to wait until you're out of Despotism, or until the town grows to Pop7.

Thank you very much. I will find and install it

 

[Aabraxan]

You are absolutely right. I did miss spotting the horses (don't know how I missed it)

Did not know about clean Map! Very helpful.

Ctrl + Shift + N pulls up the clean map settings, so that you can pick and choose what you want on and what you want off. For example, I might want cities, roads and jungles gone, but leaving territorial borders in place. Hopefully, that will make the clean map feature even handier!

Where do I find the popheads mod? Does it come with instructions? Are there other useful Mods that you guys recommend?

As noted, look around for @Puppeteer 's posts. There's a link in his sig, I believe. Or try here: https://forums.civfanatics.com/resources/evancivs-large-and-small-mood-badge-pack-updated.4092/

Directions for installation are at the above link, and it's pretty simple.

....I have some confusion. I had decided to settle on Tobacco after reading this earlier posts. Did I misunderstand something?

No, and I'm not even sure there's any advantage to my plan. I was thinking about gold and roading the tobacco tile, but then again, I would have had to move my settler, which sets the empire back by a turn..... So I think settling in place would be fine, too.

....Maybe I should restart the same map from scratch and follow the advice given and see how much better I can do for practice. I know it is cheating but I am currently only trying to learn so I know I will enjoy the restart.

I'm not going to complain about this kind of 'cheating,' because I most assuredly did similar things when I was first playing. That said, keep these saves so that you have something to compare to. And I'm telling you, you could win this one.

I did not realize Javelin Throwers had the enslave ability. I so rarely get involved in early wars that I've never seen it.

The enslave ability is kind of neat, but I've never gotten enough out of it to outweigh the insanely early GA.

 

[ArenE]

I'm not going to complain about this kind of 'cheating,' because I most assuredly did similar things when I was first playing. That said, keep these saves so that you have something to compare to. And I'm telling you, you could win this one.

Agreed! I could win it especially with everyone helpful hint and comments. I have no doubts about it. For me it is fun to learn and perfect early moves. I also like figuring out where to put cities etc. I get somewhat bored later with warfare. That is also why I have especially more to learn during medieval and later ages.

 

[CKS]

The enslave ability is kind of neat, but I've never gotten enough out of it to outweigh the insanely early GA.

If you are playing with barbs, you can get lots of barb workers without the early golden age. I wouldn't go to war with them if I had a choice, though.

 

[Aabraxan]

If you are playing with barbs, you can get lots of barb workers without the early golden age. I wouldn't go to war with them if I had a choice, though.

Drat. I forgot that you don't get a GA with barbs. Thanks for the correction.

 

[WeirdoJoker]

The enslave ability is kind of neat, but I've never gotten enough out of it to outweigh the insanely early GA.

That would certainly be problematic. I prefer a much later GA - had one in the late Industrial once, and another time I think I never got one (wish I remembered which game that was). I've only ever successfully enslaved with the Byzantine dromon, but I've also only played Byzantines once (Regent/Small/Continents-70%).

 

[Aabraxan]

....This tells you that you should not decline tribute. Pay tribute and AI will be happy....

Or decline tribute and let the AI send sacrifices your way....

 

[tjs282]

I've only ever successfully enslaved with the Byzantine dromon

That's a good trick! Did you mean the English Man-O-War?

(Or Privateers can enslave too, maybe that's what you were thinking of...?)

 

[WeirdoJoker]

That's a good trick! Did you mean the English Man-O-War?

(Or Privateers can enslave too, maybe that's what you were thinking of...?)

Unless my memory is faulty - entirely possible - I thought the dromon got to do that. If I'm wrong, then I guess it would have been a privateer.

 

[ArenE]

That said, keep these saves so that you have something to compare to. And I'm telling you, you could win this one.

So here is the save from restart. I used archers to attack in stack as was recommended since I was military and industrious. I think I am stronger. Of course it is still cheating since I knew I will encounter those 2 civilizations and build my military accordingly. Maybe in the future while playing military civ, I should consider building few archers early depending on the map (without cheating of course. Interestingly AI (Portugal and Hittites both) place a city next to Beijing same place each time and then they get annoyed with me.

No, that's fine. Tobacco only provides a Commerce-bonus, and (I'm pretty sure that) you'd still get that

Looks like you were 100% correct. Bonus is available in republic. See screenshot.

 

[CKS]

Unless my memory is faulty - entirely possible - I thought the dromon got to do that. If I'm wrong, then I guess it would have been a privateer.

No, the dromon has lethal bombardment, not enslavement. Personally, I prefer the lethal bombardment.

 

[vmxa]

IIRC it is the English ship Man of War that can enslave.