News: BOTM 16 First Spoiler - up to 500AD

[MarkM]

Yes, I built a barracks first. I declared with 4 axes. London had 3 archers. My first 3 axes died, badly wounding the archers. The 4th won, leaving 2. I galley chained over 1 more to set up a possible amphibious attack. Next turn, there were still only 2 wounded archers, so by land and by sea, I took London. Reinforcements took the other 2 cities pretty easily.

Nice! Reading your account makes me wonder what could have been in my game. I did similar thing to you (see my prev post), but had Hannibal declare on me the turn after I declared on Lizzy (his strong navy made seaborne transport reinforcement very difficult), and the even with 6 CR1 axemen vs your 4 in my wave, I must have had worse luck, losing 6-7 CR1 axemen just to take out 4 unpromoted archers Also sounds like you had some lucky combats, the first couple axemen barely scratched the London archers, the only reason I took London (40% or 60% cultural defense by then) was because I could hit it with six axeman, all from land, all on the 2nd turn of the war, if I'd had four axemen like you there would've been no way. Just curious, do you remember the ballpark of the odds (or have the log avail) for killing that last (presumably promoted?) archer with a seaborne attack? Was it a lucky break, I guess I am wondering?

Another difficulty I had that I didn't mention in my first post was that I got two barbarian galleys coming down simultaneously on Amsterdam just as I was moving the 3 galley+6axemen invasion force south for the surprise attack on London. To protect my three fishing boats working the Amsterdam FC, I had to revers course, dump the axemen on land, and moved the galleys to protect the sea improvements. I only lost one fishing boat before defeating both barb galleys, but then I had to reload the boats and get underway to London again, that delayed things, so maybe my London (which had Stonehenge and Hindu shrine) had more cultural defense for me than yours did, explaining your smaller combat losses. Plus the barb attack also made it hard for me to stand up to Hannibal's navy when he declared on me, as I did not stop to let my galleys heal after their combat with barbarians.

I'm still wondering why Hannibal attacked me immediately after I DOW on Lizzy. They were both Hindu so I took a -1 mod with him for declaring on her, wonder if that tipped things for him? Also, maybe the fact I was at war made me look more vulnerable, increasing the odds of him declaring? Or maybe it was just a bad break. That has never happened to me on an early rush that I can recall, a 2nd AI attacks me immediately, and it complicated things.

 

[ShannonCT]

Nice! Reading your account makes me wonder what could have been in my game. I did similar thing to you (see my prev post), but had Hannibal declare on me the turn after I declared on Lizzy (his strong navy made seaborne transport reinforcement very difficult), and the even with 6 CR1 axemen vs your 4 in my wave, I must have had worse luck, losing 6-7 CR1 axemen just to take out 4 unpromoted archers Also sounds like you had some lucky combats, the first couple axemen barely scratched the London archers, the only reason I took London (40% or 60% cultural defense by then) was because I could hit it with six axeman, all from land, all on the 2nd turn of the war, if I'd had four axemen like you there would've been no way. Just curious, do you remember the ballpark of the odds (or have the log avail) for killing that last (presumably promoted?) archer with a seaborne attack? Was it a lucky break, I guess I am wondering?

The amphibious attack was at pretty high probability I recall, maybe 85%. It was against an archer that had been badly wounded the previous turn. A wounded unit like that doesn't get a chance to promote the first turn after it's attacked. It only gets one round of normal healing. All three archers I killed were at 85%-95%, so there wasn't much luck in that regard. Maybe badly wounding the archers on the first three attacks was lucky, although I really would have prefered to the kind of luck where you don't lose an axeman.

Another difficulty I had that I didn't mention in my first post was that I got two barbarian galleys coming down simultaneously on Amsterdam just as I was moving the 3 galley+6axemen invasion force south for the surprise attack on London. To protect my three fishing boats working the Amsterdam FC, I had to revers course, dump the axemen on land, and moved the galleys to protect the sea improvements. I only lost one fishing boat before defeating both barb galleys, but then I had to reload the boats and get underway to London again, that delayed things, so maybe my London (which had Stonehenge and Hindu shrine) had more cultural defense for me than yours did, explaining your smaller combat losses. Plus the barb attack also made it hard for me to stand up to Hannibal's navy when he declared on me, as I did not stop to let my galleys heal after their combat with barbarians.

I'm still wondering why Hannibal attacked me immediately after I DOW on Lizzy. They were both Hindu so I took a -1 mod with him for declaring on her, wonder if that tipped things for him? Also, maybe the fact I was at war made me look more vulnerable, increasing the odds of him declaring? Or maybe it was just a bad break. That has never happened to me on an early rush that I can recall, a 2nd AI attacks me immediately, and it complicated things.

When did you declare on Vicky? For me, it was 900BC. London only had the Hindu holy city at that time. No shrine, no Judaism, no Stonehenge. I guess I must have declared earlier than you. And looking back at the power graphs, I see I had nearly caught up to Hannibal in power when I declared on Vicky.

 

[Jove]

Got lucky on a Great Scientist/Academy with only a 52% chance, but didn't realize you can bulb most of CS with a Great Merchant. That would have been a good backup plan too. Thanks for mentioning it Jove.

You're welcome! I liked this move too, though I still couldn't say exactly which techs you want to make it happen. I've seen posts where the great person priorities were all laid out, but can't find it now. Maybe someone else will post the link.

It's interesting how differently the AI developed in people's games. In my game Hannibal claimed the dyes, and Vicky claimed both the copper and iron islands fairly early- maybe the 2 shrines was enough wonders and the AI moves to expand? I don't know. The SoZ also resides in York, to little effect really. Still, these differences would be overruled if I had followed ShannonCT's plan- nice game so far! Good luck on the gold medal, and don't worry about those silly fastest-finish awards, ok?

 

[Gosha190]

As I see a lot of players got good start unlike me. I played very fast my first session. It took 1 hour for 4000BC-500Bc. I missed Oracle, GLh... had 5 cities only at 1AD. I researched Liter but did not bild GL... got CS around 200BC...Edu 200AD, but my 5-th city placed on the stone and had size 1!!! I got religion (by random or wind) in 25AD only...
so there were no paci or OR used. Terrible played game and what a nice and great map! Niklas, Thanx for it!

At 500AD there were no wars. All AI love one another and me

I believe this map is extremely easy for diplo. My aim is KILL THEM ALL if I can

PS where did you find hummers for wonders?!! Shame on me

PS settled 1S

 

[dalamb]

Settling in place gives Amsterdam enough hammers from hills to build the GLH before the AIs.

 

[MarkM]

When did you declare on Vicky? For me, it was 900BC. London only had the Hindu holy city at that time. No shrine, no Judaism, no Stonehenge. I guess I must have declared earlier than you. And looking back at the power graphs, I see I had nearly caught up to Hannibal in power when I declared on Vicky.

That makes sense. Home now and can look at the log, I DOWed on Lizzy (and Hannibal on me) 575BC. I see even if I had not had to deal with barb galley threat, I still would have been later than you, those combats were 750-725BC. Which makes sense since I built a six axemen force, not 4 like you. Reconsidering my luck, the log shows maybe I made up for things a little bit with those barb galley combatss -- I made them attack me by parking on top of fishing boats so I could get +10% defense bonus, I won both battles but with odds of 67% for each, I could have easily lost one, and being one galley short would have made me either wait longer, or else try to go with two galley loads (which would have killed nothing as it turned out).

It looks like Lizzy getting Stonehenge is just a random difference in our game (she got it 2200bc in mine, very early). Also, if I had attacked at 900BC like you I would have not gotten the free shrine, she built it 750BC (presumably popped because of SH, so just a natural consequence of that). Having those extra goodies (shrine, religions, SH) probably explains the ugly cultural defense bonus she got against me -- my full strength odds for CRI axemen against unpromoted archers in plain city were something like 20% -- & why I lost more guys, I had to wound each archer twice, only the third time was the charm. Still, losing a couple extra axemen & waiting to build them + a third troop galley in exchange for a free shrine, 2nd religion, and SH ... I'll take that

In case I was not explicit before, great game! I was just skipping right past that & diving right into the details since our gameplay sounded so similar.

 

[Gosha190]

Settling in place gives Amsterdam enough hammers from hills to build the GLH before the AIs.

yes, but settling 1S gives fast VB for food and scouting. I got +1 movement range for my ships and met all AI except MV very early.

It's interesting that MV and Hanny do not know one another in 25AD!

 

[Lanstro]

One thing I've been meaning to ask for a long time - how do you change which opponents show up in the info screen graphs (F9)? Most of the time it just shows me and 2-3 random opponents and I have no idea how to make it show the opponents that I actually want to know about.

 

[Gosha190]

One thing I've been meaning to ask for a long time - how do you change which opponents show up in the info screen graphs (F9)? Most of the time it just shows me and 2-3 random opponents and I have no idea how to make it show the opponents that I actually want to know about.

you need change espionage points for selected AI

 

[jesusin]

Vicious Vicky completed circumnaviation about turn 4.

Surely you mean turn 5, don't you?

Warrior's island came second. I settled right atop the ivory. Smart? Stupid? You tell me. My goal, again, was to maximize hammers later, so I wanted to save the middle hill for a mine.

It looks quite smart to me.

I did the same. I wasn't in a hurry to connect copper, with no barbs threatening my cities and improvements. I was in a hurry to get more happiness. Short teerm it's a good decision. Long term it doesn't lose more hammers than settling on a hill.

Why would anyone settle in a different tile? The only possibility I can think off is someone trying to get an Axe rush going.

Oh the tedium of tiny islands!

We are lucky this is normal speed, so much ferrying around is time consuming.

...

At 500AD, I had 15 cities.

...

It's time for Sushi milking! This map should have an obscene amount of seafood and rice. My test maps indicate it could be 80+. Each resource gives .75 food per turn, so we could be looking at 60+ food per turn from Sushi. A 400K score should be very doable and 500K may not be out of reach.

Oh, no, no, no, why don't you try for a fastest finish instead?

Looks like I won't be getting my gold this game either, you are too far ahead.

 

[Obormot]

@ShannonCT: good game, but IMO the risk level of your attack on London was unacceptable. Five axes (one of them attacking from a galley 1 turn after) vs 3 archers in a city - the odds were 50-50 at best, propably less. And a failed early rush is a huge setback.

In my game London also had 3 archers, but I had 11 axes, one of them on a galley. The turn after I landed, Vicky whipped a 4th archer in London, and she sank my galley with the 11th axe (unlucky roll). So I was facing 4 archers now with 10 axes. I still won easily, but if I had fewer axes the attack would have failed.

 

[jesusin]

I'm still wondering why Hannibal attacked me immediately after I DOW on Lizzy.

Dogpiling, I guess.

Good luck on the gold medal, and don't worry about those silly fastest-finish awards, ok?

Just the opposite!

I didn't send my workboat south so it took me until almost 1AD to realize that Vicki didn't have metals.

The method I use to know if they had metals doesn't involve any ships:

F4. Resources trade screen. I have copper and iron. Would they trade them from me? Voilà.

Firaxis ought to be sending you all cases of scotch or something...

I second that.

If Firaxis neglecs its duties, you are welcome to send as much beer and scotch as you like on their behalf.
Please, send it to me, I'll share with the rest of the staff

 

[Gosha190]

early war... what could be better and wiser?! NOTHING! But who could know that AI on this map will look like a piece of cake? Oficially we are playing Immortal! I played extremly fast and bad, did not build any wonders, did not settled good cities in time... BUT in 500AD I am still second in score and don't lose some chances to win my game

 

[Gosha190]

Just the opposite!

if you are playing for GOLD you can beat me this time I will not change my aim and will try to win by coquest/domi with a gold anyway.

 

[Obormot]

Axe rush is not that hard at Immortal difficulty. Sign open borders and keep a unit inside their territory, so that you know how many defenders their key cities have (also be ready to face 1-2 extra defenders that the AI can whip quickly after your DoW). When you have built enough units to kill all these, attack. In the worst case they'll have 4 or 5 defenders, and the city will be on a hill. So what's the problem, just bring 15 or 20 axes instead of 10.

Archipelago maps also require investing extra hammers for building galleys, that makes rushing harder. But there is also an advantage: the AI culture is not solid, but distributed across several islands (and even if there are no gaps, galleys move quickly even in enemy culture), so it is always possible to set up the attack in such a way, that you take their capital & the most productive cities first. This way you only need to strike one first deadly blow, the rest will be just mopping up.

 

[ShannonCT]

@ShannonCT: good game, but IMO the risk level of your attack on London was unacceptable. Five axes (one of them attacking from a galley 1 turn after) vs 3 archers in a city - the odds were 50-50 at best, propably less. And a failed early rush is a huge setback.

In my game London also had 3 archers, but I had 11 axes, one of them on a galley. The turn after I landed, Vicky whipped a 4th archer in London, and she sank my galley with the 11th axe (unlucky roll). So I was facing 4 archers now with 10 axes. I still won easily, but if I had fewer axes the attack would have failed.

I had a fallback plan. Vicky had built Nottingham on the same island, northwest of London. If London whipped a 4th archer, or if the initial attack failed to do much damage, I would take Nottingham first, then try to draw archers out of London by emptying Nottingham. 11 axes seems like overkill (to take one city). With a non-hill capital, you need at most 2 axes per archer. So if you assume he'll whip one more archer, bring 8. If you had attacked earlier with 6, you would be unlikely to face the 4th archer.

Nice to have you back Obormot. Save some awards for the rest of us, especially in SGOTM09.

 

[Obormot]

I had a fallback plan. Vicky had built Nottingham on the same island, northwest of London. If London whipped a 4th archer, or if the initial attack failed to do much damage, I would take Nottingham first, then try to draw archers out of London by emptying Nottingham. 11 axes seems like overkill (to take one city). With a non-hill capital, you need at most 2 axes per archer. So if you assume he'll whip one more archer, bring 8. If you had attacked earlier with 6, you would be unlikely to face the 4th archer.

You need at least two axes per archer plus 1-2 extra just in case. I wanted to be 100% certain, that I'll get the capital so I brought (3+1)*2+2=10 attackers. The 11th one was on a galley and I didn't really intend to use it on London, but it could be used for an amphibious attack if things went really wrong. With two powerfull cities building axes non-stop the difference between 8 axes and 10 axes is like 3 turns. If you fail you loose many more, even if you retreat and take a smaller city.

Nice to have you back Obormot. Save some awards for the rest of us, especially in SGOTM09.

Judging from your writeup it looks like you could easily win faster then me if you went for a fast finish instead of milking.

 

[MarkM]

With a non-hill capital, you need at most 2 axes per archer. So if you assume he'll whip one more archer, bring 8. If you had attacked earlier with 6, you would be unlikely to face the 4th archer.

??? I shared my experience in this game, attacking only 13 turns after you, also against a plains London with the same CRI promoted axemen on the attack. I've already has disproved your "at most 2 axes per archer" claim. I was puzzled a bit at your success, and sought to examine it in my later post, where I figured out it was maybe not as lucky or risky as it first seemed to me too. But like Obormot said, that still that doesn't change that you are going too far in this generalization. Other players (and you someday) could get burned bad by following that rule of thumb.

...It was against an archer that had been badly wounded the previous turn. A wounded unit like that doesn't get a chance to promote the first turn after it's attacked. It only gets one round of normal healing.

(from an earlier comment of yours I just noticed) Why would a wounded archer not get a chance to promote in between your turns? I don't follow that at all.

 

[MarkM]

you need change espionage points for selected AI

Elaborating: you need to accumulate enough research points "in the bank" against them so you have at least as many points as the number shown for ... I'm forgetting what the exact wording is here, but it's something like "Show demographics", in the top section (non-city specific) of the espionage screen when you select that civ on the espionage screen.

 

[ShannonCT]

??? I shared my experience in this game, attacking only 13 turns after you, also against a plains London with the same CRI promoted axemen on the attack. I've already has disproved your "at most 2 axes per archer" claim. I was puzzled a bit at your success, and sought to examine it in my later post, where I figured out it was maybe not as lucky or risky as it first seemed to me too. But like Obormot said, that still that doesn't change that you are going too far in this generalization. Other players (and you someday) could get burned bad by following that rule of thumb.

(from an earlier comment of yours I just noticed) Why would a wounded archer not get a chance to promote in between your turns? I don't follow that at all.

Attacking an unpromoted archer in a 40% culture city with a CR1 axe gives you a 23% chance to win if the archer has been fortified for 5 turns. If it's an unfortified archer, that goes up to ~30%. And if the archer wins it will lose 50-60% of its HPs on average. A follow-up attack against a 50-hp archer is 95% to win. So you have a pretty high chance of winning on turn 1 of the attack. If you're unlucky and lose to the same archer twice, there's one archer left against your multiple CR2 axemen with most/all HPs. And if a whipped archer appears, a CR2 axe against an unfortified archer is still strong.

An important point here is that the attacker has a chance to promote next turn, but a unit that defends during the IBT doesn't get a chance to promote until the turn after the turn after the IBT.

No doubt my attack was risky. I'm not advising my kind of axe rush to the player just trying to win the game. I felt like I had to take risks to have a shot at the gold.