News: BOTM 16 First Spoiler - up to 500AD

[Jbourne]

An important point here is that the attacker has a chance to promote next turn, but a unit that defends during the IBT doesn't get a chance to promote until the turn after the turn after the IBT.

Shannon CT, This is not an accurate statement. The defenders DO promote IBT if they get needed points. This is typical of a defender who defeated two attackers and survive. You may not see a promoted defender in the case when the attacker dies during battle against poor odds. the defender just does not get enough points.

 

[ShannonCT]

Shannon CT, This is not an accurate statement. The defenders DO promote IBT if they get needed points. This is typical of a defender who defeated two attackers and survive. You may not see a promoted defender in the case when the attacker dies during battle against poor odds. the defender just does not get enough points.

My mistake. I was thinking the same rule applied to the AI as to the human. The reason the archer won't usually promote is that when it wins a battle it's favored to win, it only gets 1 XP. So whether it was built with a barracks or not, 1 battle isn't enough for a promo. The wounded archer will only recover 20 HPs max. If it takes 2 turns of battle to capture a city, the main danger is a whipped unit.

 

[Lexad]

An archer can win 2 battles or 1 at low odds and get 2 points. This was the case of me failing in BOTM15 with chariot rush, 10 vs 3 - survivor got healed from promo + 2nd city garrison. But you got to risk for high result.

 

[MarkM]

My mistake. I was thinking the same rule applied to the AI as to the human. The reason the archer won't usually promote is that when it wins a battle it's favored to win, it only gets 1 XP. So whether it was built with a barracks or not, 1 battle isn't enough for a promo. The wounded archer will only recover 20 HPs max. If it takes 2 turns of battle to capture a city, the main danger is a whipped unit.

I thought your whole point was that you need two axemen for each archer, the second one should win ... but if for some reason it doesn't, don't worry it won't promote anyway. By definition if any archer survives in this scenario, it will have won two combats, ergo it WILL be able to promote immediately.

 

[Jove]

Except dead units don't promote of course. He got away with it this time

 

[ShannonCT]

I thought your whole point was that you need two axemen for each archer, the second one should win ... but if for some reason it doesn't, don't worry it won't promote anyway. By definition if any archer survives in this scenario, it will have won two combats, ergo it WILL be able to promote immediately.

Obviously that point was wrong. It still remains that 8 axemen is plenty to kill 4 archers in a 40% culture city. You've got a 65% chance of winning at least one of the first 4 battles, and having any archers survive the first turn is pretty unlikely. If one survives, you still have 3 axemen which will be high HP CR1 or CR2.

 

[MacBalt]

No doubt my attack was risky. I'm not advising my kind of axe rush to the player just trying to win the game. I felt like I had to take risks to have a shot at the gold.

Great discussion about the early rush and the risks involved. Given competition like Cactus Pete, Obormort, Lexad, Jesusin, and, apparently, much of the rest of the Civ Pantheon, taking an early risk like this might be an important way to get a leg up. On the other hand, my question then becomes: when does it stop? Once bitten by the gambling bug... Who will take just the right risks and then settle into the sustainable pattern of play that will lead to the gold? Which risks will have made the most difference by the end of the game? Or, will it be the player who takes no special risk but manages to avoid the pitfalls who takes home the gold? This is going to be a fun spoiler session. Thanks for throwing down the gauntlet ShannonCT! Obviously I won't go near the bloody thing, but it is going to be fascinating to watch those who do...

The method I use to know if they had metals doesn't involve any ships:

F4. Resources trade screen. I have copper and iron. Would they trade them from me? Voilà.

Well...
Obviously I’m still having trouble fighting my way out of that box! (again!)

Here's an interesting thing... When my ships arrived off London island in 500 AD I was surprised to find metal there after all. Apparently Vicki popped copper in that grass hill mine two north of London while my troops were in route. I checked the autosaves and there was no copper there in 400 AD. Nice! (Not as nice as taking London with five axemen in 800,000,000 BC, but still nice!)

Spoiler :

400 AD

500 AD

If Firaxis neglecs its duties, you are welcome to send as much beer and scotch as you like on their behalf.

I was just on the point of calling FedEx, when I realized that providing the CFC staff with such libations might risk the quality (if perhaps not the creativity) of future games of the month. After sober reflection, I decided not to risk it... I'd hate to see more of the staff get lost in the murky waters at the bottom of a scotch bottle.

Please, send it to me, I'll share with the rest of the staff

Tell you what... I'll deliver it personally when you and the staff arrange the next CIV IV CFC staff & players convention... perhaps to be held in Madrid in 2010???

 

[jesusin]

jesusin, contender. Goal: Gold medal (score).


*** The plan

Out-game plan: Till 500AD, play very slowly and deliverately. Play only in the mornings, never in th evenings. Play only if slept well. You have to do it this game, not to have to ever play for score again, go jesusin!

In-game plan: Take care of early happiness. Strong research, with lots of cottages in the capital, early Academy, GLH to support a big empire. No Oracle. Circumnavigation. Probably Worker steal. Later on, prioritize biology and sushi for a rapid growth, try to win the game by 800AD-1000AD,milk with sushi, try to finish by 1600AD.




*** Early stage

Move Warrior. Settle in place. Micromanage for the hill, 0 food, 2 hammers. Produce WB, research Mining.

Border expands, Warrior takes a 1500 years nap on the pigs, he must be Spanish. Micromanage for forest, still 3 total hammers.

WB is built, micromanage for corn, BW after Mining. Select Warrior as next build. Having worked on a Worker this turn would not have get it completed sooner.
Next turn the WB is used, micromanage for Corn, build changed to Worker.

Ten turns later BW is known, Sailing started, Worker is completed and production is changed to the not-hammer-decayed Warrior, while pop grows.

Worker tasks: farm Corn, mine PH, stupidly chop on Settler instead of mine+chop on Settler. Reasons: Since I will be doing set and preparing whips, I prefer not to mine PH but to farm corn before jungle spreads. There will be time for hammers before starting GLH. No need for hammers for more WB with 2 6f tiles too.

Careful micromanaging between clams and forest for pop3 and pop4, while fish and corn are always used. Warrior completed, Galley for 1 turn in order to fill the granary, then Settler. Whip Galley for the overflow to complete the Settler, fail misserably because the chop produces unhealthiness, end up 1 hammer short on the Settler.

Grow back the turn the Galley is completed. Complete Settler, settle on the Ivory for quick happiness and max hammers. Masonry and Hunting after Sailing. Lighthouse after Settler.

Now taht I have a second city I am allowed to go for a strategically important WW, the GLH. Worker stays in capital cause once commited I don't want to fail to build it.




*** Wonder building

The Warrior's nap has made him good, Worker steal Vic to have 1 crippled opponent. London is pop9 (!) with 3 Archers.
Micromanage for immediate growth after whip. Whip 2 pop in lh, overflow goes into GLH.

Mine Copper before pasturing pigs to get 2 WB for North-Eastern and South-Western exploration and because no AH yet. Chop into GLH. Both workers remain idle now.
Build a cheap Warrior just before connecting Copper.

AH-Wheel-Pottery for whipping with granary.

Galley and intial Warrior had bad luck trying to Worker steal and end up too far away, so they help with circumnavigationa nd pop a few maps in goody huts. This is probably a big mistake. For example, exploring around my area for good settling sites would have been better.


Big painful investment: whip 2 pop into GLH to save 2 turns and complete it T59 (1640BC). I'm not losing it for 1 turn.

Vic places her second city in a stupid foodless place that messes up my plans for a second city in the initial island.

Circumnavigation got 1640BC. Sending all those ships away has been a very expensive investment. So GLH has been. But now I have a long term advantage, I am ready to set up an empire. No attack on Vic yet, there's lot of space to settle.





*** Expanding

1000BC stats: 2cities, 7pop, 2wor, 3War, 2Gal, 3WB, Set. Copper. 1Lux, 4health. 0GP, 1WW, 0NW. fpc=33-14-48, 29 sust bpt, 12cpt, 2GPPpt, 9g. 2Gra,2lh. 0Relig. 0/0 cottages used. 14Techs: Alpha, IW, Pott, AH, Myst. 4 hours.

Leveraging the investment made on GLH requieres having as many cities as possible.
City3: 2fish, marble
City4: clams, gold
City5: clam, fish, copper. First city only to get internal traderoutes.
GM is born and settled in capital, 29% scientist, but no luck.
City6: fish, clams, iron. SW of London.
Start Parthenon, abort when Maces become available, not finished at 500AD.
City7: crabs, iron. It's 300BC, revolt to Bureaucracy.

Time for an important decision. Quick detour to Lite and building NE and GLIB and Parthenon for great GP production? Or beeline Maces and build only Maces? Choose the latter, need to (ab)use those MAces before longbows show up. The faster the better. I might get in a winning position very soon.
City8: sheep, crabs. Its settling costs me a whole lot of 2gpt.

1AD stats: 8cities, 26pop, 4wor, 5Gal, 1WB, 12units(5Maces). Iron, Copper, Marble. 5Lux, 4+health. 1GP, 1WW, 0NW. fpc=90,68,145; 88sust bpt, 38cpt, 8GPPpt, 450g. 2Relig. 5Gra, 5lh, 2Lib, 2Barr, 2forg. 1/4cottages used. 27Tech: Alpha, IW, CS, Curr, Calen, Machi. 0civs killed. 9hours.





*** Warring

Vic has 5 cities, 2 others 6, 3 others 3. 8 Maces in 4 Galleys attack Vic from her North, giving her 1 turn of whipping. I am glad I didn't attck with just 2 Maces as I normally do. It feels so inefficient to have those 2 Maces idlely waiting for their friends!
Lost 2 Maces at 64%, then mopped up, London and its 8gpt shrine is mine, as well as Oracle.

GS used in Academy in capital, I might feel sorry if I find a cottage city and move my Palace later on.

Vic triremes blockade my capital, economic disastre!!! Next turn I move a wounded Galley just outside their reach, they move to chase it, no more blockade. Ufff. I'm not wasting good hammers on Trirremes, but that blockade thing was terrible.

War is costly: I'm not concentrating on getting 6 Libraries up and a good grown pop before Educ comes in. Also Barb Galleys destroy some nets occasionally.

Mace lost taking the useless city, I kep it for its 5gpt shrine. Mace lost, city taken. Peace with Vic.

Detour to get Optics before Education to have caravels fighting Trirremes. Mistake? I needed time to get my Libraries up and it only took 6 turns, but...

Ready to dow Han, cause his the biggest, he just gets Feudalism, dow anyway hurriedly, unload 6 Maces into his capital, there are a ton of units, I won't be taking it.

Why oh why didn't I explore his lands before dowing? I couldn't do that with Vic because of her not opening borders after the Worker steal, but now... why? I'm so newb.

You know what? There was a pop10 city of his defended by a single Sword! I could have taken it form the sea! Next turn, it has a lb.

I lose 2 galleys and 2 Maces the first turn of the war (ouch). My 6Maces reinforcement will go to the Swo+lb city since there is not hope to take the capital with only 10 Maces, 4 of them badly hurt. Those Numidians look like a good unit to counter Maces. Should I have brought a Spear?

500AD: I have optics, half of Educ, no place for the 6th University , fpg=194,87,281; 166bpt, 9/9 cottages used, 11 cities, 8GPPpt. War promises to be a complete disastre.

I don't feel so happy with my game anymore.
I go and read ShannonCT spoiler. I'm so unhappy!

 

[Lexad]

500AD: I have optics, half of Educ, no place for the 6th University

It's Small map, you need 5.

 

[darreljnz]

Where did you settle and why?

In place. The prospect of a 3 seafood capital was too good to pass up.

How did your expansion go?

Pretty good. 11 cities by 500AD. Vicky and Hannibal haven't got in my way. Jao bet me to 2 spots but the rest of my expansion was smooth.

My economy isn't great due to my REXing. I'm still last in tech and 5th in the leaderboard. Its promising though since health and happiness are opening up and I have at least 6 cities in growth mode. Had a pause in the REX to up my power rating but now I'm on par with some AI's I can focus on 2 or 3 other city sites I have planned.

When did you decide on your VC goal and what were your your priorities in developing your empire?

Haven't fully decided yet. Either diplomatic or space. Diplomatic situation is dicey due a diverse distribution of religions. At one point there were 4 different state religions among the AI's. If I can cajole the Jewish bloc to smack down the Buddhist bloc then I stand a real chance of taking the Jewish bloc to the UN. I have sided with the Jewish bloc and Hannibal and Vicky are my staunch allies (+8 and +9 respectively)

Did you build the Great Lighthouse or not, and did it help you?

Certainly did and it was fantastic. It drive my REX strategy. I got it just before 1000BC.

I'm really enjoying my first game at this level.

 

[Gosha190]

I'm really enjoying my first game at this level.

this game does not look like real immortal. Trust me! My expirience is twice as yours - it's my second immortal game )


Jesusin

your start is much better than my game. But I spent only 3 hours for the same time period. I played in a peaceful manner, did not steal workers from poor AI BTW there was almost nothing to do for workers.

That let me got AIs pleased and I had good tech trading. I got monarchy around 600BC and accepted it. My pops significantly differs from turn to turn as I used slavery actively. I rushed 2-5 pop at one time. I did not connect iron or copper and built cheap warriors for happyness and future upgrade into maces.

I planned war just after 500AD.

 

[Conquistador 63]

Very nice map, Niklas! There has been a fierce competition among GOTM staff on who creates the best game, and the winner is...us, the players crowd!

About my game, I suppose I am still more afraid of Immortal than I should be after all these years, so I played a peaceful/builder (thus far from brilliant) game up to 500AD.

Epthatlon-wise (am I not allowed to dream?) I should be seeking Gold, Culture or Conquest but none of these seem feasible/attractive to me in a Immortal/watery/no vassals map, so in the beginning I decided to just have some fun trying to post a space race win.

So, settled in place, built GLH, REX'ed, etc. like almost every other player, but with heavy focus on research. Near 400AD I had like 7 cities and was halfway to Education when a rather unexpected GE popped. My first reaction was to rush Pyramids for Rep, but I wasn't running that many specialists and HR was netting me diplo bonus from Joao and Ragnar.

Then I noticed someone else's Confu had spreaded to a couple of my cities including Amsterdam, and recalled a post in pre-game advising for the hammer bonus of temples/monasteries of the AP religion. The AP was still open for grabs (Joao was 1st to Theo), so I thought, why not, and converted to Confu just to build it and switch out of it as fast as I can. Out of the 6 first religions, this was the only one not adopted by any of the AI.

So, it's 500AD and Black Willem is the atheist pope - seems fit for a pirate. Half the neighborhood is pleased with him due to right civics/peace/OB. Big dilemma is, should he:

1. accept the cheese and go for what should be an easy and fast AP win,
2. decline the cheese and earn a hard-fought space race, with all the threats and risks involved?

 

[greatbeyond]

The AI names were great, and did you catch how when they said Netherlands it NethaaRRRlands. Nice touch.

I was dismayed to see all the little islands as in my test game they were slightly bigger, thus better city sites and fewer cities needed.

Settled in place, went for WB, WB, Worker, Warrior, WB, Galley, Settler

Research: Mining, BW, Myst, Me, PH, Wheel, Pottery, MC, Writing

Sent WB exploring and discovered all other Civs. Contrary to what someone else found, Ragnar had the biggest empire. I thought I got the Circumnavigation bonus but somehow Ragnar beat me to it and I never saw him send a boat my way. It seemed way to early for Maps to have an effect.

Settled 2nd city on the Copper and built Axes, sent a force of 7 to visit Liz, after getting OB and finding out she didn't have metals. She goes from 2 Archers in London to 4. My best odds for the 1st attack with CR1 Axes was <20%. I back off and figure I'll pillage while sending more reinforcements. They take too long and Liz sends out a Chariot. This is taking too long and I settle for Peace and a tech.

In the meantime, I am building the Colossus. I pop rush it with three turns left because I have some unhappy people. IBT someone else completes it . @@#$%^

I figure while building a few more Axes and Spears in the 2nd city, I'll build the Pyramids. One turn left, someone else completes them. @#$% ^&*( @#&* (*$#

I have to get some cities and decide I'll take the one that Liz built on the NW edge of her island between us. The turn before I land she shows up with an Axe to join the Archer and Chariot. I check quickly and she doesn't have Copper or Iron. I find it hard to believe someone has traded her for it. I capture the city losing 3 Axes, but I have 2 Spears and 7 more Axes. Liz shows up with HA and LBs, I repel her attack. She will settle for peace and I see that she has discovered CS 4 turns before me, and she must have traded for Machinery which means Maces. The other Civs are more tech advanced and are hemming in my two cities. I'm not sure this game is worth continuing, but I won't give up just yet.

Perhaps I should have just expanded and left Liz to her own devices.

 

[jesusin]

Wow, hard situation, greatbeyond. I think you can save the game. If you end up winning after such a terrible start, it will be no small feat!

You haven't stated what was your goal. Maybe that explains some of your decisions. In my ignorance, let me try to state things I would have done differently for the benefit of other readers (I'm sure you already know):

- Delaying your building settlers for building Axes instead is good... only if you get some free city/cities.

- Delaying your building settlers for building Colossus instead is good... only if you complete it AND it fits your general strategy.

- Delaying your building settlers for building Pyramids instead is good... only if you complete it AND it fits your general strategy.

- Now, out of these 3 good strategies, you can choose only one. You need to keep expanding. Imagine you had taken London and got your 2 wonders. You would be in a horrible situation anyway, with only 3/4 cities at 500AD!

- Colossus... why? If you are going for a Space or Diplo victory, it will obsolete too soon. And GLH seems much better in all cases.

- Pyramids, why? Whatever your VC, it seems that the map is too short of hammers, so you will want to run slavery all game long, never Castes.

- How could Liz whip 2 Archers on your first attack? If you disembark next to her city, and attack immediately the following turn, she only has time for 1 whipped Archer.

- How could you lose the Colossus? If you had already whipped, there is no way anyone gets it before you. The human player is the first to be evaluated in the interturn.

 

[ngraner42]

- How could you lose the Colossus? If you had already whipped, there is no way anyone gets it before you. The human player is the first to be evaluated in the interturn.

I have had that happen. The wonder is completed in the prior interturn, but you miss the message. Your building of the wonder is not taken out of queue until the next turn.

 

[jesusin]

I have had that happen. The wonder is completed in the prior interturn, but you miss the message. Your building of the wonder is not taken out of queue until the next turn.

I see. What a wonderful way to turn pop into money.
You have found the Philospher's Stone!

 

[Lexad]

Except for 50% penalty to pop-rushing WWonders.

 

[Mastiff_of_Ar]

You need to circumnavigate both East/West and North/South on a toroidal map.

THAT might have been some useful info from the start....

 

[jesusin]

THAT might have been some useful info from the start....

That was discussed in the pregame thread. I didn't know before, but I started the game with that knowledge.

 

[civ_steve]

Foolish me - didn't read the pre-game thread, so I had to experiment around to get the circumnavigation bonus. Still, achieved that with no problem in the mid-1300's bc. The extra ship movement is sooooo nice on this map!

Founded in place, and was really happy to see the corn to the south. Build 5 WB's, a Warrior and a Worker in some order. Settled 2 food resources with the WB's and sent the other 3 exploring, and made all contacts in fairly short order.

Unlike many others I decided not to pursue GLH, since this is only about my 3rd Immortal attempt. Thought long and hard about researching BW (slavery and food) but decided I could beeline to Alphabet and trade for BW in just a few more turns, and have scads of other Techs as well. So AH-Writing-Alpha, done in 2120 BC. Trades galore! If I'd been a little more careful I could have kept the Alpha monopoly longer, but I made one trade too many and ended up losing the combo that could have gotten it for me. So I had to trade Alpha to Long Kon Silver for the BW.

I then teched up to Drama, while trading for the religion Techs and IW. Hannibal had founded Judaism and it spread to Amsterdam; I had already decided that Vicky had to go, so I saw this as a chance to make Hannibal a war buddy - I converted to Judaism. This also lead to a trade to get Dyes from him, and overall he's been a real friendly guy ever since.

Founded Utrecht in 1320 BC on Pig-Island on top of the Ivory. I already had IW so I knew this would get Iron in the FC of Utrecht. But, of course, no Iron source. Well, there's always the Iron just to the NW, but that's not a very good island. Ah ... there's the island SW from Vicky that has Iron and 2 sea food resources; that seems better, and it limits Vicky's access to metal. 3rd city (The Hague) founded here in 650 BC.

After Drama, Construction so I can get Cats and eventually WEs in play.

OK, I've got Vicky surrounded (ha ha). Utrecht built Barracks and Axes, Amsterdam 2 more Galleys (1 build earlier to settle cities) and Catapults. War declared in 325 BC and Hannibal allied for a Tech. Nottingham on the NW coast is captured with loss of 1 Cat providing ColDam. Units heal and advance on London. A Wall has to be reduced first, and eventually London is captured in 50 AD, with loss of 1 Cat. Advance to York on island to S (the Conf holy city), captured in 200 AD. OK, one more city on island SE of York Island (Vicky finally got some copper!). Vicky is removed from game in 275 AD.

So my forces are regrouping back at the capital, resting up and getting ready for Joao Sparrow (still without Machinery). I teched Philosophy, and then after learning COL, converted to Caste and Pacifiism (while fighting the crusade against the English!) Amsterdam ran 6 Scientists and generated 2 more GS's (one for Academy, the other towards Education). I've got CS already and am in Bureaucracy. Hannibal and I are the Tech leaders, and we've been trading pretty freely (he's at +16 with me! so any conquest/domination attempt will target him LAST; maybe go West and come at him from both sides at the end; MV is +9, but doesn't have Machinery either). I've got Optics and about 2/3 of Education (through the GS), but I plan to pause for a bit, convert back to Slavery/ OR to get these new cities up to snuff, and save cash to upgrade my battle experienced Axes to Maces (at least 2 civs don't have Machinery yet). Vicky built the Colossus for me, so it's hard to ignore those 4 gold sea spaces around Amsterdam right now. I think later I'll convert London to my GP farm and keep Amsterdam for gold and shields.

By far my best start on Immortal! Very much enjoying the map and civ changes! (Thanks, Niklas! )