[BTS] News: BOTM 192 Results and Congratulations

[zbgayumn]

Well, now I don't feel so bad. My contender game made it to the 800 ADs before Shaka came to wipe me out and I retired. I then played the Adventurer game, and even that was no piece of cake. I took revenge on Shaka and got up to ~20 cities, but then was walled in by Sury who had a huge military. I was Friendly with him most of the time, so a massive invasion didn't seem worth it. I had to do some catching up in the Industrial era, but I finally upgraded to Infantry and went east to take out Zara. After that, I settled into Space mode because I had spent way too much time on the game already. Space victory in 1943.

 

[shakabrade]

I think I had a very good run at the game with the gems start, but I could not have outproduced Shaka even at very good unit trading 4-5:1. If not all of Shaka's core cities (and not so core cities) were on the hills, I could have made to take Mids and figure out where to go from there (although it would have immediately been a war with powerful Sury). Managed to take 2 cities on my road to Ulundi (Mids). Where I was at was very thin chance that I would take Ulundi, couple of defenders left and then Shaka reinforced with the nice SoD which just came back from Sury after they signed peace in the middle of my attack. I suicided all of my units in anger and ragequit, corrupting the save for the submission in the process.

Edit: I stand by the opinion that this map can be unwinnable if you are not attacked by Shaka at the right moment, not too soon while you can't physically do anything, and not to late when 15+ unit SoDs come, or/and Cats. So, 1500BC - 750BC is okay. You would also be able to promote your Archers along the drill line. The problem is that you can't just wait for cannons or similar as everyone has more land to work with than you and they trade a lot. You are forced to break out earlier while you have a slow start leader. With gems and a good choke, AP is maybe viable, but other wins not so much. Shaka is too far away for any harass.

All in all, luck dependent map, although it pains me to say that as I consider more than 85% of random deity maps totally winnable (with normal settings). This is really one special map. Without map knowledge you would never do crazy all-ins needed to crack the Shaka as in any other map you would not be happy with less than 50% chance of success. I think such gambits are needed to become relevant on this map soon enough.

 

[greatbeyond]

Wohoo!! Another ambulance to add to my fleet, though this one is green versus red. I did take the Adventurer save so I can imagine that if I had taken the Challenger save I would have had a hearse instead of an ambulance.


I have replayed this game at least 15 times trying different settling, production, and tactics to see if I could actually find a way to win and to also better my play. In each of these games it was the Mongols who overwhelmed all others. I can't imagine how bad it would be in the challenger save. Even though I vastly accelerated my playing style I lost to the Mongols every game. In the last one, I beat the Mongol spaceship even though we launched on the same turn.

In my contest entry I SIP'd started with a worker, then warrior followed by a settler, which is unusual for me as I normally try to get a settler out first. I had played several test games, but still wasn't prepared for Shaka so close, and of course with an early UU that was very powerful. I was surprised when I went over my autolog and found that I waited until 575BC to attack Shaka. He had just settled the chokepoint city and had just turned size 2 when one of the two archers had moved out of the city. I pressed the attacks and off and on took a ceasefire to lull the Zulu into moving some of their units out where they could be destroyed. The off and on war still lasted far too long and it took a long time to get even with the other civs.

So what led to my last game and victory? More important than where I settled was getting enough units together to take on Shaka before he was able to get copper or iron hooked up to build Impis and to pillage his lands mercilessly. In addition was pushing to get the war over asap. Poor Shaka after so many games it was sooo satisfying to give him payback for all my defeats at his hands in other games. The only thing that could have been just as satisfying would be if it had been Isabella! The other strategy was to quickly attack the Khmer before they became too powerful and threatening. Poor Zara confined to 3 cities in each game, he was never a factor in any of the games. It took some time to catch up to the other civs, but eventually it was only the Mongols who were ahead of me. My high production cities I think were the key to me getting my spaceship launched at the same time even though the Mongols started many turns before I did.

 

[Fine_Distinction]

BTW, during replay I noticed that Xcalibrator did not have barbarian city spawning to the East, blocking ivory. The city was well defended with a ton of archers, and conquering it and fighting Shaka at the same time was stretching me really thin, but conquering it was a must, it was blocking a lot of land and valuable resources.

I wondered whether it was pure luck or @Xcalibrator fog-busted there more successfully? I was trying, but my warrior died in the competition game and in all replays, there was couple of naked hills there and he was always attacked by archers there. Or should I prioritize more axes/archers for fogbusting? It was my first deity game, I tried with warriors, hoping for a forested hill to park them, like on the other side. Didn't work as planned

 

[damnrunner]

I’ve never gotten BTS patches to work right and hence have never been able to submit one of the BTSM games. However, I still play most of them and this was probably my best played high difficulty game ever (EDIT: actually I am an idiot and downloaded the Prince version and didn't notice and just thought I was rocking a Deity game). So – I wanted to share.

I ended up with a diplo win in 1838. With better diplomacy, this could have been in the early 1700s. With a longer slog military or space wins could have also been possible.

Following is a fairly detailed game recap as it seems I had way more success than most and wanted to share.

Early Game

• I built my 2nd city in 2280 BC which I used to seal up my peninsula as early as possible.
• I then built 3 more cities and began building an army (mostly axes+chariots) to go after the Zulu before they got too powerful. I later built 2-3 more on my peninsula but didn’t make note of the dates.
• I attacked the Zulu in 225BC and quickly captured a border city.
• In 25 BC I was able to capture the Zulu capital. If I recall this was partial luck as the Zulu moved some units out of the city which gave me a chance to take it with minimal losses. I was then able to get peace which was fortunate as a counter attack as holding the city would have been hard. The city also had GW and Pyramids which was great as switched civics to Republic which was key for my tech advancement.
• Also in 25BC, I used a GS to bulb Philosophy and get Taoism. Never done that before! I also used it for some pretty epic tech trading which got me tech parity and built good relations with the rest of the continent. In retrospect it was probably my single best move in the game. I didn’t ever convert though and kept same religion as Cambodia (Judaism) to keep good ties.
• In 250 AD I attacked Zulu again (with catapults now) and took 2 cities before making peace in 500AD (at this point I was low on units and could only play defense anyway). The captured cities were to the south and west. This took some cultural border pressure off the old Zulu capital and allowed the city to become productive. However, the Zulu still had a city to the NW which was crappy but its borders denied access to a lot of good tiles.
• During the war I felt confident about my military superiority and turned resources to wonder production completing several between 425AD and 560AD. I built the Parthenon and Great Library in my capital (yey for marble + chopping). I also built Angkor Watt because I wanted to run lots of prophets in a city to get a GP for the Taoist shrine…this worked out and it was a good money maker. In the old Zulu capital I built the Statue of Zeus because I wanted to push out borders (kind of surprised I got it).

Mid Game

• In 760 AD the Zulus attacked me. I played defense for a while and then went on the offensive once I had teched and upgraded a force of Samurais. Between 1000AD and 1200AD I burned the city to the NW that had been denying access to tiles with its culture, took one city to west, and the two Zulu cities on the Cambodian border. I then took peace leaving the Zulu with one former barbarian city in the far west (they later built 1 or 2 more).
• During this period I also made contact with the other continent which resulted in another round of tech trading.
• I then sent my army south to attack the Arabs. I had joined a war against them at Cambodia request back in 500AD (Cambodia was a powerhouse and I was very worried they would crush me). Cambodia had captured one Arab city on 940AD and in 1080 I bribed Cambodia to stop its war as they were about to take core Arab cities and I feared a Cambodian behemoth. I was able to capture the 3 main Arab cites between 1260AD and 1370AD and during this time Cambodia rejoined the war. Pretty sure we stayed at war with them for the rest of the game which was great for diplo relations (Arabs had one island city).
• Meanwhile I was also the 1st to tech Liberalism in 1280AD (this never happens!). If I recall I used this for Astro which led to a nice econ boost from foreign trade and enabled another round of tech trades.
• In 1300 I built Versailles in a former Zulu city and the Forbidden Palace as soon as I could in a former Arab city both of which helped econ.

Late Game

• In another departure from my normal game play I teched state property and flipped to communism and universal suffrage (I think during my 1st Golden Age which began in 1440AD). This further helped my econ and turned several of my cottage cities into production beasts.
• I also took out the final Zulu cities in ~1500AD
• I had my 2nd golden age in 1535AD.
• I finished the Kremlin in 1545AD and Statue of Liberty in 1575AD.
• I built 3 cities on the ice island to the north around ~1600AD. This was useful for population as together they had access to several seafood resources, and with universal suffrage and Kremlin I could buy granaries and lighthouses for cheap.
• I built the UN in 1705! While becoming Sec Gen was easy (Me+best buddy Cambodia), I was not able to pull off a diplo win for over 100 years. While everyone (except Arabs) liked me – Mongolia got the votes of people on his continent. Also Justinian did not like me enough to vote for me (if I recall I could get their vote for Sec Gen just not for the win).
• I probably should have rushed the UN in a crap city and then gifted it to the Arabs…but didn’t think of that.
• Instead I began focusing on population growth (teched or traded for Biology) and built Hollywood, Broadway, Rock and Roll, and Christo Redeemer. I also began preparing for some new warring by upgrading my fairly large yet mostly obsolete armies to infantry and artillery (forget if I also had to tech these or if I was able to trade for them).
• I had my 3rd Golden Age in 1710. Which helped with wonders and commerce for tech/upgrades.
• I was able to do some creative diplomacy which flipped Ethiopia to my cause. I changed to free religion (which I think would lose me Cambodia’s vote) and then bribed Ethiopia to also flip to FR. This damaged Ethiopia’s relations with Mongols and allowed me to bribe the Mongols to declare war on Ethiopia. I then flipped back to Judaism to keep Cambodia happy and while Ethiopia was semi upset at me, they were more upset at the Mongols.
• I also tried a bunch of bribes, gifts, etc to win over Justinian and Gilgamesh, but it never worked. Though I was able to lock in Hammurabi (if I recall he vacillated in votes until I gave some gifts). I tried to also be strategic in only giving luxury/health resources to my voting allies to help max out their population.
• In 1775AD I attacked Justinian and took his continental cities pretty quickly (he had a few good island ones).
• I thought this would push over edge but I was still right on cusp and it took a few more rounds of votes until I prevailed.

Thoughts

• I could have managed diplomatic relations in the early game better and am sure I could have won a diplo victory in the early 1700s.
• Alternatively I could have attacked Justinian a lot earlier. I actually considered this right after I defeated the Arabs, but I would have had to divert my econ to military techs and unit upgrades which would have delayed my tech progress to the UN.
• When I did get the UN win I was mulling doing a pivot and going for a Space Race win (should have been fairly easy but would take a while) or a Domination win (a doable challenge, but a HUGE time suck).

Anyhow, game was a blast. Thanks!

 

[damnrunner]

I wondered whether it was pure luck or @Xcalibrator fog-busted there more successfully?

In thinking back to my game, I don't recall any barbarians. So I am thinking I kept the whole peninsula fog busted from early on.

 

[damnrunner]

. In each of these games it was the Mongols who overwhelmed all others

Interesting, in my game Mongols were advanced - but Cambodia was right up there with them in terms of tech and power. At the end I was well ahead on GNP (about double theirs at the end) and had approximate parity in terms of power and tech. Production wise, we were about even as they had Mining Inc.

The other civs (except Arabs) were also not as far behind. I suspect my very active tech trading may have been a factor in keeping everyone fairly close in terms of tech parity. Also in the later game I was giving away tech to keep folks happy and to ensure folks like Ethiopia had advanced units for defense.

 

[Xcalibrator]

FD: I don't recall the details of my fogbusting, but I generally give it a pretty high priority. Remember that posting a unit prevents spawing within a 5x5 square around it, not just where you can see.

damnrunner:

 

[Fine_Distinction]

FD: I don't recall the details of my fogbusting, but I generally give it a pretty high priority. Remember that posting a unit prevents spawing within a 5x5 square around it, not just where you can see.

damnrunner:

Thanks for the info, X. I was trying to fogbust, but my warrior died on a tile 1 or 2 east, iirc the same happened to another I know about 5x5 square, but my warriors were always dying before "getting in position" and barbarian city spawned in the East soon afterwards ;(

damrunner wow, so that was deity save? a pity you were not able to submit, Shaka would not got all the medals and thank you very much for such detailed notes , will try to reply along these lines. When/if I finish 3 (soon 4) other BOTMs I am currently playing

I played couple replays and time when Shaka attacks changes a lot between replays, but for me it never fitted. In the competition game he attacked me ~500BC

 

[damnrunner]

wow, so that was deity save?

I am such an idiot....I just checked to make sure, and apparently I downloaded the Prince version. Wowo. Head desk.

I honestly played through the whole game (and that long ass write up) thinking I was on a higher difficulty level. Fail.

Well now I am super embarrassed.

 

[Fine_Distinction]

I am such an idiot....I just checked to make sure, and apparently I downloaded the Prince version. Wowo. Head desk.

I honestly played through the whole game (and that long ass write up) thinking I was on a higher difficulty level. Fail.

Well now I am super embarrassed.

Sorry No reason to be embarrassed, though, the game was very tough on "Prince" too (was not regular prince) and among people who tried, you are second to report win even on "Prince", all others were reporting losses and retirements.

And your diplo time was much better than achieved during competition! So looks like a very good game overall just your write up felt so different from my grueling deity experience that I asked