[BTS] News: BOTM 266: Tokugawa, Noble - starts 15 January

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BOTM 266: Tokugawa of Japan.



You play as Tokugawa of Japan on an unmodified shuffle mapscript at Noble difficulty level. All of your opponents (except barbarians) were gifted all of the Ancient Era techs, which should speed the early game up for you.

Game settings:
Playing as: Tokugawa of Japan
Rivals: 8 AIs
Difficulty: Noble
Starting Era:
Ancient
Speed: Normal
Options: Raging barbarians, no espionage
Victory Conditions:
All enabled

Map settings:
Map: Shuffle
World Wrap: Cylindrical
Mapsize: Standard
Climate: Arid
Sea level: Low
Map latitudes: -90°S to 90°N


Tokugawa is Protective and Aggressive, and you start with Fishing and The Wheel.

The Protective trait gives free City Garrison I and Drill I promotion for archery and gunpowder units and double production speed of Castle and Walls

The Aggressive trait gives free Combat I promotion for melee and gunpowder units and double production speed of Barracks and Drydock

Unique unit: Samurai (replaces Maceman)
First strikes are the samurai's strength: It starts with two first strikes, and the drill I promotion which gives an additional first strike chance (and gives easy access to some other rather nice promotions). However it does specifically need iron to build: Unlike the maceman, copper won't suffice.

Unique Building: Shale Plant (replaces Coal Plant)
Unlike the coal plant, the shale plant will provide power whether or not you have coal available. It also gives +10% hammers.

Starting screenshot

This is the start of the game (click for a bigger image):





To Enter the Competition:

This competition will open at 00:01 am on 15 Jan 2024, server local time (UTC-6:00). From that date and time, you'll be able to get your chosen starting save >>>here<<<.

Submit the save after your victory (or defeat) here, by 15 Feb 2024.

Here is a link to a list of the differences between Vanilla, Warlords and BtS.

Software Versions

Windows: This game MUST be played in Beyond the Sword (NOT Civ4 Vanilla or Warlords), patched to version 3.19, and with the BUFFY mod version 3.19.005 installed. You can download the BUFFY mod here. Players using Windows Vista or Windows 7 are encouraged to read the notes on Vista fixes here.


Macintosh: This game MUST be played in Beyond the Sword (NOT Civ4 Vanilla or Warlords), patched to version 3.19, and with the Mac BUFFY mod version 3.19.003 installed. You can download the Mac BUFFY mod here.

While playing...

Remember - for your entry to be accepted, it MUST be your first attempt to play this game, and you MUST NOT replay any turns. If you make a mistake while playing, you have to live with it, learn from it, and carry on the game without replaying.

We will open 'spoiler' threads during the month for players to discuss what happens in their games. Do not discuss any details of your game outside those threads.
 
If anyone is wondering why we will have so many games going simultaneously, it is because after the bacchanalia of the holidays which had delayed the start of some earlier games, we endeavor to get back to a schedule where a "hard" game starts at the start of a month, and an "easy-but devilishly-evil" game starts on the 15th of every month. We endeavor to give succor to your wildest fantasies. :mischief:
 
Well it looks like I need to adjust my agenda again. :nope: It's appreciated of course.

Anything near the wheat looks ugly. PH is asking for a visit, if necessary farm a flood plain. Can get a pretty quick Pottery with Japan too...... If PH dissappoints somehow we can always turn back.
Raging barbs on Noble should not be a problem . Fogbust like you would on Immortal is all you need to be safe (....is my guess).
 
Dry wheat isn't very interesting. I agree with moving towards the flood plains. I guess the no spying option makes the GW less attractive. I rolled a couple of shuffle maps and they seem to be pretty random, but quite often they have land masses separated by ocean.
 
Is there anything that prevents a first turn goody hut from being hostile? Can goody huts be influenced by the player at all or always 100% random?
 
Is there anything that prevents a first turn goody hut from being hostile? Can goody huts be influenced by the player at all or always 100% random?
100% random, but:
Scouts do not get hostile stuff.
Settle your capital first or you won't have a chance to get a tech, which solves the hostilility issue too (don't know but I don't think it's safe).
Also later on finish techs first to prevent getting the tech you have almost completed.

Note that each diff level has its own distribution of chances.
On Settler/Chieftain level you can get settlers/workers from huts, so it could be better to pop some huts first before you settle your capital, if you start with a scout.
 
What's shuffle map again? Too :old: to remember.
If everyone else have all the ancient techs then it won't take long for the barbs to have them too.
Random events must be on since they aren't listed as off.
 
100% random, but:
Scouts do not get hostile stuff.
Settle your capital first or you won't have a chance to get a tech, which solves the hostilility issue too (don't know but I don't think it's safe).
Also later on finish techs first to prevent getting the tech you have almost completed.

Note that each diff level has its own distribution of chances.
On Settler/Chieftain level you can get settlers/workers from huts, so it could be better to pop some huts first before you settle your capital, if you start with a scout.
Are you sure about the 100% random part? I was under the impression that if you have no cities you cannot pop barbarians, nor techs. In any case, if settling pops the hut, barbs cannot pop inside the cultural borders of a city. Pretty sure. Anyhow, it is kind of embarrassing that I missed deleting that hut... I usually delete all of the huts within 8 tiles or so. Oh... and I think you get 2 free wins against barbarians at noble level, which might be useful if I'm wrong. :cringe: I think the forum resources explain huts in a more exact way.
 
I'm curious about the motivation for turning off espionage? Wasn't familiar with this setting but it seems to turn the palace espionage into culture which is actually a bit of a buff in the early game.
 
I'm Not sure about that. I think it also changed the amount of culture needed for a Borderpop from 10 to 20, which is a severe debuff. There are some other changes I will talk about in the spoilerthread.
 
For sure I didn't want to reveal anything map specific. Just a FYI for people to check their culture bar more than I did.
 
I'm curious about the motivation for turning off espionage? Wasn't familiar with this setting but it seems to turn the palace espionage into culture which is actually a bit of a buff in the early game.
Yeah, it has some implications for those going for a cultural win mostly... there are resources in the site to help you understand the implications. Make good use of them.
 
I wonder if you'd consider adding extra time for this game, maybe an extra 3 weeks, or even longer, to allow for late-game-Corporation Cultural Victories. It is the game's settings that really dictate a later Cultural Victory than normal, and it's the timing of other games that have made this one hard to get to, until now. Having 8 AIs stealing the early-game Wonders will also delay a Cultural Victory.

It looks like there are only 2 submissions so far.

I have yet to start it, with so many recent overlapping games, and there's not enough time remaining to really get started without a significant deadline change.

With the Shuffle map script, it's hard to know what we might get.

With the AIs having so many early-game techs, it screams of an Alphabet beeline.

But, we don't really have much in the way of visible Commerce.

Forests are plentiful, but you'd delay Bronze Working with a true Alphabet beeline. AIs are likely to hog the early Wonders, with those Wonders being unlocked. There would be no sense in beelining an early Religion, either, as they should get distributed to the AIs randomly who have the corresponding techs (which is all of the AIs) on what, Turn 5?

Starting with Fishing screams of an exploration attempt to find seafood (and hence at least a bit more Commerce), maybe for up to 10 turns. One way to think about it is that it's really just a race of how quickly we can get to Alphabet so that we can trade Alphabet for all of the other techs.

I think that once you have settled your capital, you can pop Barbs from a Hut, but not if that Hut is within a distance of 8 from your capital. However, you CAN pop Barbs from a Hut that is within a distance of 8 of another player's capital, if the AIs haven't already popped said Huts.



Regarding the No Espionage setting, let's see if we can find some useful links. Please note that I'll just quote people by posting their text, and thus the wording may say "I" but it's the wording from the original author.
There isn't an Espionage Slider.
Communism does not give us a Great Person.

Testing shows a very disappointing result: An Intelligence Agency's +50% Espionage applies to Espionage Points that a City produces and then those Espionage Points get converted to Culture.

So, a City with a Palace and an Intelligence Agency will make:
( 4 EPs from the Palace + 8 EPs from the Intelligence Agency ) * 1.50 = 12 * 1.5 = 18 EPs

Those 18 EPs then become Culture.

Disappointingly, base Culture is not multiplied by Espionage multipliers, while Espionage Points are not multiplied by Cultural multipliers.

So, the Espionage Points are pretty much useless for a Cultural Victory, as your Free Speech and Cathedral multipliers will not affect the Espionage obtained from Buildings. Further, you can't increase the Espionage slider, nor can you obtain a Great Spy, so there won't be a lot of base EPs kicking around to be multiplied by the EP-multiplying Buildings.

What about Wonders or National Wonders that normally produce GP spy points, such as the Great Wall?
Such Wonders (and National Wonders, such as the Forbidden Palace) will produce "generic" Great Person Points.

So, if one has The Great Wall and a Scientist Specialist hired, 2 GPP from The Great Wall will not count toward any Great Person type, while 3 GPP from the Scientist Specialist will count toward a Great Scientist type.

Thus, for example, if you build The Great Wall and hire an Engineer Specialist, without hiring any other Specialists, you'll get a Great Engineer.

If, on the other hand, you own The Great Wall for 47 turns (94 GPP), and for one of those turns you hired a Scientist Specialist, then for another one of those turns you hired a Merchant Specialist, regardless of when you hired them, as long as you hired them only for an equal number of turns (one turn each, in this example), then you'll have a 50% chance of getting a Great Person of either type.


If you get purely "generic" Great Person Points, you'll just keep collecting them past 100 GPP, without creating a Great Person.

If you hire 2 Spy Specialists in The Kremlin City, you'll earn "generic" Great Person Points from them, too.


Culture requirements for Cities to expand their Cultural Borders are doubled.

So, instead of needing 10 Culture to expand one's Cultural Borders, 20 Culture points are needed.

Palace = +2 Culture and +4 EPs for a total of +6 Culture

20 / 6 = 3.33, which means 4 turns

If one builds a Monument in a secondary City, that means waiting 20 turns for the Cultural Borders to expand there.


Deckhand summarized that Cultural points needed for culture victory are doubled, but espionage doesn't provide much help toward it.


TalladegaKnight asked whether anyone else saw a devoid world wonder/top 5 city screen? I can see the top 5 cities, but no info on which wonder is where on the side. However, I can see which AI national wonders are built where.


A warning from Fine_Distinction indicates that on the way to building The Great Lighthouse, a Random Event can destroy your Lighthouse.

Remember LowtherCastle's warning to try to keep some Gold on hand, to mitigate some of the bad Random Events (I recall him suggesting 30 Gold and 20 Gold at two different times).

DynamicSpirit confirmed what Pangaea said, that the first border pops happen on 20 and 200 culture, and a city needs 100 000 culture instead of 50 000 culture to achieve legendary status.

DynamicSpirit also went on to say that:
You cannot build spies
Espionage-related buildings can still be built (although as I quoted above, the Espionage Points which they generate get affected by Espionage multipliers, not by Cultural multipliers... and the maximum percentage of Espionage Points' multipliers are far smaller than the maximum percentage of Cultural multipliers)
I can't find an espionage screen
Although you can't build spies, you can still hire spy specialists, if you've built the appropriate buildings
It's impossible to generate a Great Spy (with the implication that you cannot get the 100% Espionage multiplier from an unbuildable Scotland Yard, which even reduces the total percentage Espionage multiplier possible when compared to a game with Espionage enabled)

LowtherCastle quoted the requirement for one of the most annoying Random Events:
Slave Revolt
Prereq: Slavery Civic AND city with population 4 or more AND WRITING or MONOTHEISM or PRIESTHOOD or IRON_WORKING
Obsolete: None
Active/Weight: 80/500
Result:
1.+1 angry face (like whipped) AND -2 population AND 1 turn revolt AND chance of looping to 3
2.you pay 10 gold AND -1 population AND 1 turn revolt AND chance of looping to 3
3.1 turn revolt

What seems to be missing from that quote is that the third option, of letting the local authorities (continue to fail to) handle the revolt tends to lead to looping to 3 (looping to itself). Actually, I really wonder if option 1 does have looping to 3, as I thought that if you paid the maximum price, the looping stops.


Tobiyogi said that if you hire one specialist spy = 4:espionage: and you have a castle, you get 5:espionage:. You have a palace and a jail, 4:espionage: become 6:espionage:. That's all. It's not much. In a long list of all the culture modifiers, you have one entry at the end which says "Culture from :espionage: points" and it is pitiful. Maybe 50 out of 800.


Fine_Distinction said that what I really missed most during test games is the lack of passive espionage, prolly because I use it a lot. Feels almost like playing blind ... and complicates managing building late game wonders and conquering Wonders a lot. On the other hand you get graphs for free, but I preferred espionage screen

Fine_Distinction also pointed out that since there is less great people types, the number of possible Golden Ages is limited. Not that people where doing 6GP Golden Ages lol


Tobiyogi reminded us that the capital even benefits from the "slower border pops" rule due to its palace. The third ring is achieved quite early.
This fact implies that AIs will get their capital Cultural Defensive Bonuses even earlier than normal, in case you were thinking of Axe Rushing.

Tobiyogi said that I could reach over 1000 culture per turn in 2 cities while the impact of "culture from EP" was marginal, 2 points from the CH.


Pangaea pointed out an interesting idea: Don't know if it's feasible to go quite this deep in the tech tree, but if people are going to Sid's Sushi anyway, how about Sid's Sushi + Creative Constructions?


DynamicSpirit said that you cannot get the Great Spy from the Spy Discovered Random Event.

DynamicSpirit also said that I was already building the Apollo Programme, and had decided on no more wars (because the unhappiness might delay my spaceship), when a random event involving a Persian spy being discovered in my court happened. For some reason, although there were three options of how to respond, two of them were disabled, and the only one I could follow was to interpret this as a declaration of war! So suddenly I found myself in an unwanted war on the Western continent. The event also gave me a stack of tanks (although rather uselessly in my capital - it took some time to ferry them across to the war zone).

Deckhand clarified that since two of that Random Event's options have an Espionage effect, they are not possible to choose.

Event162
Spy Discovered
Prereq: INDUSTRIALISM and contact with another player AND at least 4 cities AND Capital
Obsolete: ROBOTICS
Active/Weight: 60/100
Result:
1.gain 400 Espionage points AND mutual +2 Attitude modifier with other player
2.pay gold (300 base) AND gain 1 Great Spy unit
3.declare war on other player AND gain free unit support for 20 units AND +1 happy face for 30 turns AND 1 Tank unit for every 4 cities




One important point is that Culture Bombs from Great Artists are a lot less useful than normal for a Cultural Victory. Hence, spamming Wonders, spamming Cottages, or conquering the map and getting to Sid's Sushi are going to be relatively stronger options than are generating Great Artists. However, it also does mean that late-generated Great Artists can still be settled and have a useful enough effect to be worth settling them relatively late compared to "regular" Cultural games.

Another relevant point is that early-built Cultural Buildings can have their base Culture double, which does get affected by Cultural multipliers. Espionage Buildings have no such doubling of base Espionage Points. This fact may matter a bit more, as a later-game Cultural Victory will have a later game time, meaning that you can build your Cultural Buildings just a bit later than normal and still have their Culture double before the end of the game.
 
Sorry... a change in game deadline at such a late date would be unfair to those who rushed it through. Thanks for participating in the discussions!
 
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