News: BOTM05 Pre-game Discussion

[haphazard1]

Depending on what the warrior sees on the eastern hill, I may consider moving the settler to leave a litte room for a second city to the east.

Looing closely at the screenshot - the squareness of the grass hill N, NE of the settler looks to be the (top) edge of the map.

Nice catch, Chopster! Now that you've pointed it out, my limited fog-gazing abilities agree.

I'm not sure about shifting the settler to try to fit a second non-jungled city. If there is a food resource visible from the eastern hill, it could work. I wonder about the desert hill S, SW of the warrior -- rain forest maps often have patches of desert. Many such patches have rivers with plenty of flood plains....

 

[kcd_swede]

@Lexad: Most of the things I've found to be reletively lame in BtS (like Vultures, for example) is probably because I haven't yet figured out how to use them effectively. Hopefully I'll learn something this game -- hopefully not "the hard way", either.

I have often faced difficulties getting Vultures into battle before their advantage is equalized. Vulture utility for me will depend on where the copper is. Once I have iron I don't think Vultures change my preferred sword/axe ratio much, if any.

The UB is very good, though, at only 90h.

 

[Lexad]

Vultures are cheaper than swords, do not require iron, have better chances against defending axes and spears, are available earlier. Axe special unit was the thing avoided in Vanilla and Warlords for being imba However, now chariots are more efficient vs them, and there's no specaxe (vulture, phalanx or dog) that can't be countered by axe-archer mix in defence.

 

[kcd_swede]

Vultures are cheaper than swords, do not require iron, have better chances against defending axes and spears, are available earlier. Axe special unit was the thing avoided in Vanilla and Warlords for being imba However, now chariots are more efficient vs them, and there's no specaxe (vulture, phalanx or dog) that can't be countered by axe-archer mix in defence.

Axes are cheaper than swords and do not require iron and (unpromoted) have the same probability against defending axes and spear as a Vulture does. I think, comparing Vulture to axe for what it specializes in (melee battles), the advantage is really only evident when highly promoted -- since the promotion multipliers are calculated from the base value (6 vs. 5)-- promotions on a Vulture are worth 20% more than the same promotion on an axe. I think. (Also against archer and chariot you start with a 20% advantage compared to axe).

If I can get Vultures to an AI city while its still defended by archers, then sure, its great. But in the same situation I could handle it with axes too, I hope. I've played Gilga quite a bit and tried out strategies aimed at taking advantage of this UU, but havn't been too excited by my success. Maybe I just need some tips on how to use it.

 

[Infantry#14]

vulture units are vulernable to normal axe counterattack, especially against aggressive civ that starts with combat 1 and shock right away. I learn it the hard way in G-Major 24 when my army of vulture was defeated by Shaka and Ghenghis's aggressive axe.

 

[Lexad]

When you attack a civ early (i.e. with axes), the foremost defender unit is archer. Vulture is almost as useful as sword vs archers, much better vs melee, available earlier, costs cheaper. Therefore vulture rush is the better version of sword rush. If there are any unclear moments, please tell.

A small numeric example why theyare much better than axes:
Consider a CRI vulture attacking CGI archer in a plain city with 20% cultural defence and CRI axe doing the same. Archer can have a fortify bonus of 0-25%.
Vulture power 6 vs archer power 3*(1+0.5city+0.2culture+0.2CGI-0.2CRI+fortify) = ranging from 5.1 to 5.85. Victory chances all above 50% (smth like 60-80%).
Axe - 5 vs range 5.1 to 5.85. Victory chances all below 50% (smth like 30-45%).
You will lose twice as less vultures on average. That's the freaking big issue. So no, you can't perform the same strat with axes as effectively as with vultures.

The key to max vulture usefulness is fast attack - you should be getting ready for it in advance, grow your cities for pop-rushing, get workers ready for chopping, building roads, get barracks.

 

[Shillen]

Yeah I wouldn't really compare vultures to axemen, even though that's what they replace. Vultures are equal to axemen against melee units. But like Lexad said probably 75% of your fights in an early war are against archers, not melee units (vultures 20% stronger than axemen). You should compare vultures to swordsmen. They're 12.5% cheaper to build than swordsmen and only 10% weaker against non-melee units attacking a city while being 35% stronger against melee units attacking a city and just plain equal or better out in open field combat. Add on top of this that you can get them many turns sooner and I find it to be an excellent UU. The only thing that slightly diminishes it in this particular GOTM is the fact that we're going to need ironworking early to clear jungles. On a normal map you could completely avoid ironworking until much later than normal because of the UU.

I'll be unhappy if it's like my practice game in which there was no copper or iron anywhere near me, though. I'm really liking the rainforest map. There seem to be high concentration of resources. In my practice game without editing anything I had 4 pigs in my capital's starting radius. And every other city had at least 2 good food resources. If the GOTM is anything similar I'm going to be whipping like crazy (3 pop at a time pretty much). The jungle isn't a big issue with all the food because it's easy to build a ton of workers.

edit: Oh, and silver is pretty common in this map-type.

 

[kcd_swede]

@Infantry#14: My experience would agree with yours.

@Lexad: OK, I understand you and why you are comparing to swordsmen now. Yes, it would seem like a pseudo-sword rush cheaper and several turns before IW is possible, with the added benefit of melee power built in. I do tend to be slower than most in getting copper hooked up and production in early game, so maybe that is why I haven't been very effective with Vultures -- against axemen they give you nothing.

With 10 AI civs on standard map, I think I'll have to give it another try, though. If we get copper anywhere nearby, that is. ;-)

@Shillen: Yes, I think even the AI will be going for IW early. So maybe time for one quick rush then the UU advantage may be spent. (That said, its better than very late UU like in GOTM29). I've played rainforest a few times. Every single time I get the "holy mountain" quest. I have yet to complete that quest.

As for the map... not much to say. Settle in place and use the whip.

 

[Vynd]

I played around with a couple of Rainforest maps. I didn't measure exactly but they seem quite large. More than large enough for 10 AI opponents without much crowding. Besides large amounts of jungle the maps both had very large deserts, and mountain ranges 3 or 4 tiles thick and 10 or so long. One had a pretty substantial sea.

Mineral resources were concentrated mostly in the deserts and in hills near the mountains. I saw 4 gold within about 6 hexes of each other, and 3 gems right next to each other. Deer, Fur, and Silver appear in places you wouldn't normally expect.

 

[cas]

The key to max vulture usefulness is fast attack - you should be getting ready for it in advance, grow your cities for pop-rushing, get workers ready for chopping, building roads, get barracks.

I agree the vulture is great for early fast attacks, but I prefer to do that before the AI (eg...Shaka or GK) start spamming axes...where the AI is still at 1 city or just founded city#2 and has only archers. Pop-rush will still be somewhat effective with the high food but the ultra-early attack will be somewhat limited with no trees to chop.

cas

 

[JacktheBodiless]

So I was thinking about how to make use of Gilgamesh's Protective trait combined with the Vulture, and it occurred to me that this combination might make for some wickedly survivable pillaging stacks. Given the extra survivability conferred by the Vulture's 20% strength advantage and Protective's free Drill promotion, it seems like you definitely want to make the enemy come to you. What better way to do it than plowing salt into their fields and then daring them to come try and stop you? The extra strength gives our Vultures a bit of added durability against the preferred pillage-busting units (Chariots)... hide a couple CR-promoted Vultures in the pillaging stack to make the AI pay if it is dumb enough to send its defenders outside the city walls to try and break the chokehold. Perhaps instead of a SOD, the idiosyncrasies of this combination calls for a lot of smaller stacks...

As a kind of indirect synergy, the Protective trait (plus the UB, ftw) encourages rapid expansion into areas where the resources to allow building Vultures can be found, since defending new territory is a bit cheaper than for a non-Protective leader. Creativity will also help such a territorial push.

Man, I am starting to get enthused about this game! I agree that we are at the top of the map. I plan to move the warrior onto the E hill. Barring discovery of massive amounts of wheat and gold, I will settle in place.

Planned tech path: AH, mining, BW, then try to found a religion. My plan is to grow just enough to facilitate cultural victory, while keeping the AI down with pillaging stacks! A little extra fun might be to try to win without conquering a single (unrazeable) enemy city. Conquest is just a lot less fun when you don't get to burn stuff.

 

[MarkM]

I confess I'm missing why all this love for vultures in this specific game (unless DS has obliged us & given us nearby copper and an obvious target neighbour). They still require copper like axemen, though they are +1 strength, they are also only +25% against melee instead of 50%, so although they are 20% stronger against chariot and archers, they are equivalent of plain old axemen against melee units, bonuses cancel out. So they are only an improvement if you can find & hook up copper, then pump out enough and send them through the limited-visibility jungle and around big mountain chains to attack someone before they've found copper. But as others have already pointed out, on rainforest maps it looks like metals tend to be located in deserts, so odds are we don't have one in starting radius, and it may require establishing your 2nd city in a location it can never grow much (ie no whipping) in order to hook it up early enough.

Thanks to eagle eyes of chopster we know we are along top, so that probably means to do the earliest rush you'll have to head straight east or straight west -- again, assuming DS has not modified starting positions ... wish he'd say if he did South will probably work only if we're in a corner. I think this is an important point because it would be my natural tendency at least to start exploring south otherwise, given where warrior starts + fact we are on northern edge.

I also generated a few maps & some of them are pretty wild. Check out the JPG attachment to this message for one example of an ugly starting position!

 

[haphazard1]

I also generated a few maps & some of them are pretty wild. Check out the JPG attachment to this message for one example of an ugly starting position!

Heh. Fun start.

You would need a couple galleys to serve as ferries, but at least your capital is essentially invulnerable until well into the game.

 

[Half Nelson]

OK, I give in. Where do you find the Rainforest map type on BTS?

 

[ShannonCT]

OK, I give in. Where do you find the Rainforest map type on BTS?

Where you set up a custom game.

 

[Ronnie1]

OK, I give in. Where do you find the Rainforest map type on BTS?

It's there, scroll down!

As to the game!

IMO, there should be plenty of room to expand by peace or by force. In my test I got 7 good city sites by 0AD, and as someone else said, usually had at least 2 food resources. All VC's are achievable, but what will be FAST. The no city razing option should make conquest more difficult than domination. Domination will require a pretty good chunk of the landmass as there are virtually no ocean tiles. Should be a good game!

 

[da_Vinci]

I also generated a few maps & some of them are pretty wild. Check out the JPG attachment to this message for one example of an ugly starting position!

That looks like Switzerland!

And we all know how far they expanded over history ...

dV

 

[da_Vinci]

Is this a no barb game DS? Edit: Forget that question.

Is this one of those rectangular all land maps, like highlands? Even so, maybe 10 AI will make it a no barb game regardless of the barb setting?

dV

 

[Half Nelson]

Thanks for the map location; I'd never have found it otherwise!

 

[Shillen]

All VC's are achievable, but what will be FAST. The no city razing option should make conquest more difficult than domination. Domination will require a pretty good chunk of the landmass as there are virtually no ocean tiles. Should be a good game!

I think there will be fast times for all VC's. It will be interesting to read about people's games for sure. Conquest will be difficult but doable. I'll be interested in how people manage their economy with a fast domination or conquest, though. In one test game I played I took out one civ near me pre-0AD and with just my 2 original cities and the AI's cities (he wasn't that far away from me either) I was in the red at 0% science/espionage. I was able to recover but I definitely couldn't have gone after another civ for a while, especially considering the next civ would have been even farther away and had even higher maintenance. I'm thinking cottage spam will be necessary even for a military victory.

I'm probably going for a space race since I consider myself weak at fast military wins.

Is this one of those rectangular all land maps, like highlands? Even so, maybe 10 AI will make it a no barb game regardless of the barb setting?

dV

It's true in my test games barbs have had an extremely minimal effect, and yes it's a flat map unless DS changed the default setting.