News: GOTM 13 Pre-Game Discussion

[DynamicSpirit]

Hi all. Despite losing GOTM 12, which was apparently really easy, I'm returning for more punishment and hopefully improvement on GOTM 13.

'Easy' is always relative to how much Civ4 experience you have.

As this is only my 4th full game, I'd really like some broad, strategic advice. I'm wondering how you decide what victory to go for. Is it based on the start map position or a strategy that you're familier with? I'm thinking of going for the spaceship as this is the victory I know best.

I've usually decided what victory type I'm going for even before the game details have been announced - my decision will be based on nothing more than what I most feel like doing next month. Civ 4 allows lots of different strategies, and I like using the GOTM to try out different strategies to see if I can improve how well I can implement them.

Then when Ainwood/Gyathaar posts the starting screenshot and game details, I use that information to decide what strategy to pursue in the BC years, aiming towards my chosen victory type. These days I'd be very unlikely to change my chosen victory type in the light of what the starting map shows (though I may change it during the course of the game if circumstances dictate, and indeed did so in GOTM12 - see that final spoiler ). The reason is I view the GOTM not so much as a competition against the AI but more as a friendly competition against the other people entering. So if the starting information looks really unfavourable for the victory type I've chosen, then it makes no odds to me: Sure, that makes it a harder challenge for me, but it makes it equally a harder challenge for everyone else who's going for the same victory type (and may reduce the number of people going for that victory type. Less competition ).

In terms of advice, best thing I can say is: Make sure that right from the start you remain focused on your victory (spaceship in this case) and on your chosen strategy to achieve it. Make sure every decision you make is guided by the long-term strategic implications of that decision, as well as any short-term advantage. (But at the same time, if circumstances turn out to make your chosen strategy unworkable - which I'm sure happens to everyone, don't be afraid to rethink it).

And good luck! Great to have you in the competition May you score a stunning victory this time (just so long as you don't score any higher than me )

 

[da_Vinci]

Any advice gratefully received.....

Perhaps the best advice is to be sure to browse the war academy section of the CFC site. Lots of good basic articles, as well as more advanced ones.

In my opinion, winning from a very small empire takes a lot of skill (more than I have), so I have tended to go for expansion so that I am at least as big as the top AI in cities and territory. Since you will want aluminum for the space race, a certain amount of size will improve your odds of having it once you can see it.

Expansion has its downsides: war weariness, high maintenance costs. So be sure to build those courthouses and the forbidden palace to control that, and don't expand too fast until these are available.

City specialization helps too. I am still learning the details, but as an example, having a city or two full of scientist specialists who still make flasks even when the slider is at 0% science is very useful. Decide what certain cities will focus on (there is a war academy article on this topic) and optimize that in the city with choice of buildings, specialists and national wonders.

Also, if the AI percieves you to be weak, they will attack you (sometimes regardless of relations), so keep a respectable defensive force, even when you are focusing on tech growth. Having a specialized military city that pumps these out even when focusing on tech works for this.

Perhaps the hardest thing is keeping tech parity. Get alphabet in the BC's, find all the AI, and trade, trade, trade! If (or should I say when) the AI are ahead in tech, don't research what they already have, research what they do not have. Then trade one novel tech with 3 or 4 AI to backfill 3 or 4 techs that you are missing. Even if the trades are uneven (you get a cheaper tech for your more expensive tech), do it in most cases since if you can do it several times for the one tech, you are still ahead. And if you don't trade, the AI will get that tech shortly and you end up with nothing.

You said that you have started some test games, and my advice would be to finish one or two of them. It is the mid to late game that the AI will outrun you in tech if you don't get used to the trading techniques, so get some mid and late game practice. And if you have never used or been abused by 20th century weapons, play out long enough to experience that.

dV

 

[dalamb]

I'm quite inexperienced with anything higher than Warlord, but have decided to give this one a try. I think I've absorbed a bit of the advice from earlier in the thread, but still have a few questions, which are likely quite naive:

1) I learned about the CS slingshot in the fall and managed to use it in a Prince-level practice game. I see people proposing to use the Oracle for Feudalism instead of Civil Service. Do you go for Feudalism if you're going for a conquest victory, and CS for something more peaceful? I imagine warlikes would also go for Theology for the extra experience for new units, too?

2) I have never tried a game without early religion, and am not sure I want to try now for the first time on Monarch. So,
2a)Is Hinduism better to go for than Buddhism?
2b) If I decided to go for the CS slingshot, should I skip the early religions in favour of confucianism, or does that arrive too late?

4)From some comments it seems as though having a religion in a city helps culture. I wasn't aware of this -- does it give +1 culture or something like that?

4) Organized religion has high maintenance, so I have been avoiding it for many turns in practice games. Any advice on how soon to use it?

 

[Alraun]

1) I learned about the CS slingshot in the fall and managed to use it in a Prince-level practice game. I see people proposing to use the Oracle for Feudalism instead of Civil Service. Do you go for Feudalism if you're going for a conquest victory, and CS for something more peaceful?

I believe people go for Feudalism because CS is very hard to pull off on Monarch unless you have a gold or a gems or a silver in your start.

 

[man-erg]

And good luck! Great to have you in the competition May you score a stunning victory this time (just so long as you don't score any higher than me )

Thanks for the all the advice

I was not sure about entering GOTM13. After owning the game for less than a month, I thought maybe it's pointless. Perhaps I should spend a few months learning the game at lower levels. Then I realised that I can do that anyway, and do the GOTM in parallel. What's special about the GOTM is the level of open discussion by you experts about the same game that I'm playing. So this makes it excellent for learning. Also, I put more effort into GOTM 12 and will do for GOTM 13, than if I was just playing with no competition. And this is far better than being thrashed at multiplayer!

On GOTM13, I do intend to expand, but through conquest rather than building my own cities. Still not sure as since previous post, the continual wars in my trial game have eventually ground me down. The Aztecs just won't stay at peace. By around 1000 AD I had 2 more civs declaring war with me. Obviously they saw that I was weakened. Now with 3 enemies I'm beginning to really struggle to keep up.

This seems like a downward spiral - is there any way to reverse it or is it a matter of not getting into it in the first place? The biggest damage seems to come from losing tile improvements, so I need to add 'defend improvements' to the ever increasing list of things to do.

 

[da_Vinci]

On GOTM13, I do intend to expand, but through conquest rather than building my own cities. Still not sure as since previous post, the continual wars in my trial game have eventually ground me down. The Aztecs just won't stay at peace. By around 1000 AD I had 2 more civs declaring war with me. Obviously they saw that I was weakened. Now with 3 enemies I'm beginning to really struggle to keep up.

This seems like a downward spiral - is there any way to reverse it or is it a matter of not getting into it in the first place? The biggest damage seems to come from losing tile improvements, so I need to add 'defend improvements' to the ever increasing list of things to do.

Continual war is only good if you are on the offensive and winning. In my first GOTM (#10, tells you how new I am), I had three declare on me in the 20th century and just got slaughtered! I posted about it in the GOTM 10 threads if you want to see that you are not alone in these struggles.

Monte will declare on anything that breathes, any time, it seems. I find he usually comes with inferior troops, but in huge numbers.

How to reverse? Need some data (this is a TEST game, right?) ...

How many cities do you have now?
How many of these cities are starving?
(The quick way to assess how much war weariness is punishing you)
How many cities have you lost to the enemy?
What % science are you running now?
(The quick way to assess how much high maintenance is punishing you)
Do you know code of laws?
What types of military units are you making? (catapults, anyone?)
What types of military units are attacking you?
What civics are you running?
Do you have a religion? Is that making the world hate you?
Did you agree to open borders with the AI's? I think new players often hesitate to do this, but it is critical for good relations.

If they are winning, you need to make peace. That may mean giving up gold, a tech, or a city if you are that desparate. See if you have any friends, and is there anyone you can bribe into going to war with your enemies?

If you can post the above information, I am sure there will be a lot of specific advice that will help you greatly in GOTM 13 (assuming the mods don't blast this as off topic).

dV

 

[siggboy]

Hi,

since I'm kind of a lamer at Civ4 myself, I think I can give you some advice at eye level .

Hi all. Despite losing GOTM 12, which was apparently really easy, I'm returning for more punishment and hopefully improvement on GOTM 13.

OK, first of all in my opinion GOTM12 was super-easy, so if you lost that one you will have a tough run with this one, since it's one level higher, on a large map and epic speed (which you might or might not be used to).

As this is only my 4th full game, I'd really like some broad, strategic advice. I'm wondering how you decide what victory to go for. Is it based on the start map position or a strategy that you're familier with? I'm thinking of going for the spaceship as this is the victory I know best.

I won most of the games I actually attempted, except for my first respective attempts at the next higher difficulty, and then it was mostly an early defeat/resign due to lack of military defense. So my first advice would be not to totally neglect your military in the beginning, even if you want to play a peaceful game. At least build some archers/axes to deal with the barbs and for fogbusting. Since this is a large map, there will be a lot of fogged area for most of the game, so you will have barbs around. Don't lose early cities to them because you "needed that axeman somewhere else" .

Go for the victory you feel most familiar with (Space in your case). Don't experiment without testing first on a higher difficulty than you are used to. Personally I think Cultural is pretty easy, since there are solid, easy to grasp "recipes" on how to achieve it. Also, if played properly, you will have won before the AI has any chance to complete the Space Ship, so you won't be racing with anyone of them. Now, if it turns out that we get an isolated start (i.e. not meeting many (or any) contenders before Astronomy), you would have to make sure that you can found three religions on your own because you won't get them from neighbours (for a good Cultural win you need religions).

Also, I'm planning to be more war-like than usual. In both test games I was next to Monty, who continually attacked me so I've got a lot better at warmongering. Maybe foolish, but I think I can challenge the AI best at battling, rather than city production.

It is kind of mandatory to show aggression on Monarch and higher levels. Be relentless, don't hesitate to build only military units for extended periods of times and whack your neighbours at the next best opportunity. I found myself to be quite a whimp regarding aggression, but then realized that it is not hard at all if you are consequent in your actions (ie. not flipping needlessly between teching/building/warring, instead sticking to one until your milestone is reached). I also think it is a lot easier to defeat one or two oppos as early as possible, since they expand faster than you do and cause you a lot of grief later, when they will have more land/cities and possibly are ahead in tech. So try to get copper/iron ASAP, build the respective units and wipe out your neighbour (if you have a choice, go for the aggressive, psycho neighbour first, since you will be warring them sooner or later anyway). You can forego expanding in this case, since you will get the cities from them, so you won't have to settle yourself.

My plan is to emphasise military techs, build at most 4 cities, maybe get attacked which will strengthen my units, then choose the right time to expand by conquest. Maybe get Conquistador ASAP.

The "right time" is early in my opinion. As for getting the Conquistador early, there has been some good advice on this already in this thread (I haven't used the Feudalism slingshot before, but I'm going to try it in this game, sounds nice with the UU we have).

Any advice gratefully received.....

Take my advice with a grain of salt, there are better players than me, but IMHO Monarch is not as hard as it seems. I'm only playing Civ4 for a few weeks now and if I can win Monarch, so can you (NB I've never played any of the earlier Civ games). I've read a lot of the articles in the War Academy, most of which are really helpful -- highly recommended!

Oh, and obviously you should listen to godotnut and the other daredevils around here...

--Sigi